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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:29 am 
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Chances are he'll be ok. Let's hope so anyway.

The Astros did us a huge favor by swinging the bat in the ninth. If they had just stood there I think we would have lost that game.


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:11 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Stupid to pull Karstens after 88 pitches.

Agreed. Just heard Jim Kaat saying last night that pitch counts are the dumbest thing to happen in baseball. Unless he said he was done, he should've had a chance to finish.

Once again, we are forgetting what has made Karstens effective: lack of fatigue. Look at the pitch counts that Karstens was on last year, and compare them to the pitch counts he had in previous years. Notice the difference?

What made Karstens an effective pitcher was Hurdle limiting his pitch count to approximately 90 pitches per outing. Karstens's biggest flaw is his lack of stamina, but that flaw can be mitigated by not having him pitch as long as his fellow starting pitchers. Yes, the drawback is that he'll pitch fewer innings on average than the other members of the rotation, but that's a small price to pay for the truly effective innings he provides, as we saw last night.

And Jim Kaat can shove it. Not every pitcher in the league can be gifted with a rubber arm that can throw complete games like he could. There's a reason why he had a super short career as a pitching coach: he lacks perspective. He has no idea what he's talking about here.

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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:51 pm 
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If your pitcher has a shot at a complete game, he's still dealing/ showing no signs of fatigue, and your closer is up for his third game, I think you give him the ball in the 9th.


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:59 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
If your pitcher has a shot at a complete game, he's still dealing/ showing no signs of fatigue, and your closer is up for his third game, I think you give him the ball in the 9th.

And if your pitcher is having only his third outing since recovering from injury and has a history of breaking down after 90 pitches, and the game is close, I think you go to your bullpen to preserve the physical health of your pitcher as well as the integrity of the lead.

There's no reason why Hurdle had to go to Hanrahan; Grilli or even Hughes could have handled that 9th inning.

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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Karstens's biggest flaw is his lack of stamina, but that flaw can be mitigated by not having him pitch as long as his fellow starting pitchers.


Great point, Willton. I was at the game, and was critical of the move (wanting to see a complete game, and blaming the move on Hurdle wanting to pad Hanrahan's save's total). But, you make an excellent point. If he can save some for the stretch run, we'll all forget about this. Glad you pointed it out.


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Willton wrote:
RTJR wrote:
If your pitcher has a shot at a complete game, he's still dealing/ showing no signs of fatigue, and your closer is up for his third game, I think you give him the ball in the 9th.

And if your pitcher is having only his third outing since recovering from injury and has a history of breaking down after 90 pitches, and the game is close, I think you go to your bullpen to preserve the physical health of your pitcher as well as the integrity of the lead.

There's no reason why Hurdle had to go to Hanrahan; Grilli or even Hughes could have handled that 9th inning.


One more inning would not have hurt Karstens at all. Given that he is so fresh, doubly so. If they're concerned about his injury, he has no business being on the mound and should still be on the DL.


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Willton wrote:
RTJR wrote:
If your pitcher has a shot at a complete game, he's still dealing/ showing no signs of fatigue, and your closer is up for his third game, I think you give him the ball in the 9th.

And if your pitcher is having only his third outing since recovering from injury and has a history of breaking down after 90 pitches, and the game is close, I think you go to your bullpen to preserve the physical health of your pitcher as well as the integrity of the lead.

There's no reason why Hurdle had to go to Hanrahan; Grilli or even Hughes could have handled that 9th inning.


Nope, with that easy outting and 6 pitch 8th Karstens should of got the ball. Why go from a known, Karstens in total control of the game, to an unknown, in which Hanrahan is going to climb the mound? Go with the known until it fails you. Karstens was at 86 pitches...could of easily finished under 100.

Also, hasn't Hanrahan put at least one guy on in most of his last dozen saves?


Last edited by Dr. Phibes on Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:03 pm 
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There was an interview with Karstens on the post game show. Karstens said that Hurdle asked him how he (Karstens) felt. Karstens said that he felt fine but was hesitant to attempt a complete game because of the two run lead not being big enough. Had it been 3-0, he would have taken the mound to start the 9th inning. Karstens said that he didn't want to give up a double and then have Hanrahan come in to clean up his mess and the he preferred to have Hanrahan finish the game with no one on base to start the inning.


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Willton wrote:
RTJR wrote:
If your pitcher has a shot at a complete game, he's still dealing/ showing no signs of fatigue, and your closer is up for his third game, I think you give him the ball in the 9th.

And if your pitcher is having only his third outing since recovering from injury and has a history of breaking down after 90 pitches, and the game is close, I think you go to your bullpen to preserve the physical health of your pitcher as well as the integrity of the lead.

There's no reason why Hurdle had to go to Hanrahan; Grilli or even Hughes could have handled that 9th inning.


Nope, with that easy outting and 6 pitch 8th Karstens should of got the ball. Why go from a known, Karstens in total control of the game, to an unknown, in which Hanrahan is going to climb the mound? Go with the known until it fails you. Karstens was at 86 pitches...could of easily finished under 100.

100 isn't the magic number for Karstens; 90 is. You're speaking in generalities; I'm speaking with specific reference to Karstens. Not all pitchers are built the same. Isn't it No. 9 who constantly preaches considering the entire situation on a case by case basis? Well, Karstens is not your typical case.

And when did Hanrahan or Grilli become unknown commodities? Isn't Hanrahan the closer because he's known to be effective? When did he become some sort of wild card?

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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Tommy Gunn wrote:
There was an interview with Karstens on the post game show. Karstens said that Hurdle asked him how he (Karstens) felt. Karstens said that he felt fine but was hesitant to attempt a complete game because of the two run lead not being big enough. Had it been 3-0, he would have taken the mound to start the 9th inning. Karstens said that he didn't want to give up a double and then have Hanrahan come in to clean up his mess and the he preferred to have Hanrahan finish the game with no one on base to start the inning.


Nice self confidence after a 6 pitch 8th....


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Also, hasn't Hanrahan put at least one guy on in most of his last dozen saves?

So what? That's no worse than Karstens: he usually puts at least one guy on in most of his innings. Do you no longer trust Hanrahan to pitch scoreless innings? Is allowing one base runner an inning such a sin?

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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Also, hasn't Hanrahan put at least one guy on in most of his last dozen saves?

So what? That's no worse than Karstens: he usually puts at least one guy on in most of his innings. Do you no longer trust Hanrahan to pitch scoreless innings? Is allowing one base runner an inning such a sin?


Karstens had 4 baserunners all night. Go with the known, instead of bringing in an unknown, when there is nothing wrong with the known.


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Willton wrote:
Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Also, hasn't Hanrahan put at least one guy on in most of his last dozen saves?

So what? That's no worse than Karstens: he usually puts at least one guy on in most of his innings. Do you no longer trust Hanrahan to pitch scoreless innings? Is allowing one base runner an inning such a sin?


Karstens had 4 baserunners all night. Go with the known, instead of bringing in an unknown, when there is nothing wrong with the known.

Again, when did Hanrahan become an unknown? What is so unknown about Hanrahan?

Do you want to know what is known? Karstens' lack of durability. It makes no sense to push him past his customary pitch count any more than necessary after coming back from an injury.

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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Again Wilton, as I stated earlier, anyone that has watched the games Hanrahan has entered the past last half dozen or more times has to have questioned which hammer was there that night. He has been wild and his velocity way down. At the least, if it was a must to save Karstens the chore of throwing maybe 10 pitches over his set limit, there were other options. Me, I let the starter finish after he was cruising.

Once again we will have to agree to disagree. I fully respect your opinion on this matter & others you comment on.

Regardless, something seems wrong with the hammer. Reminds me of Capps fizzling out.


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:13 pm 
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I agree with Wilton here... damnit!

:twisted:

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:27 pm 
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I find it ridiculous that a starting pitcher would be considered overworked if he threw more than 10 pitches an inning. Maybe we should go to a 7 man rotation & 3 closers.


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:00 pm 
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He has a very consistent point in time in his pitch count where he becomes ineffective... 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
He has a very consistent point in time in his pitch count where he becomes ineffective... 8-) 8-)


Yes. That last pitch in his 6 pitch 8th really showed he was laboring.

EDIT: I don't know Wilbert, I'm probably wrong. These dudes have algorithms figuring everything out these days. Times have changed & I think I'm behind them.


Last edited by Dr. Phibes on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 07-05-12 Pirates (45-36) vs Astros (32-50)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:39 pm 
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To get 8 out of Karstens and let him leave on a positive note with a top notch closer waiting in the wings......I take that. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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