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 Post subject: Re: June 21, 2009 Pirates (31-37) at Rockies (35-33)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:21 pm 
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BostonBuc wrote:
I turned this game off. I was watching on DVR after father's day festivities but I turned it off.

I was excited after last weekend w/ Detroit but I think it's clear that we have tanked at this point.

Here is what I take from this game:

1. Delwyn Young should never ever play in the field again. He may be the worst defender in baseball and is totally clueless in the field.
2. Paul Maholm (who I like as a fan) is at best a #3 starter on a good team. He just isn't a top of the rotation guy.
3. Eric Hinskie can't perform w/ the Pirates. He is a) either not a major leaguer or b) he doesn't want to be a part of the Pirates. I think it's the latter but he should be sent down, traded, or cut. This is surprising to me given his performance in Boston which was totally different.
4. A team that was serious about trying to win today's game would have played Morgan, Moss, and Adam. For whatever reason a decision was made not to compete today. That frustrates me to no end.
5. The jury is out on Pearce but my bet is that is not an every day player.

I'm not a Nutting basher, and I don't think it's a conspiracy theorist I just think the simple truth is that we are bad. We are bad and Mgmt has decided to throw in the towel on this year. Nothing else explains that lineup today. Maybe it's for the better but I'm frustrated because today's game was over before it started.

I'm glad I got that off my chest :)

1) Agree...only position for Young is DH/PH.
2) We don't have a #1 starter...yet.
3) I'm not familiar enough with his work (mainly on defense)...other than the numbers he's putting up...which aren't good.
4) I would debate #4...but only in the respect that Morgan is hitting .111 versus lefties in the last 2 months. Actually...I anticipated Pearce would play instead of Adam...but was surprised that Adam would PH when he did (with no one on)...knowing the pitchers spot would bat before the end of the game. This actually looked like a "normal" Sunday lineup where most of the bench plays. Had the roster move not been made...Hinske probably would have played 1B and Monroe in the OF.
5) Three plate appearances is not enough to decide on Pearce.


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 Post subject: Re: June 21, 2009 Pirates (31-37) at Rockies (35-33)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:47 pm 
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There are too many quotes to quote but I don't disagree all that much w/ your post Thunder.

Here are some additional points for clarity:

1) If Nyjer plays today - he is stat wise the best defensive LF in the NL - the game never goes 3-3. Nyjer never makes that error and Freddy never drops the pop up. That might have changed the entire outcome. That's why Nyjer has to play regardless of offense (he should just bat #8/9 IMO) until we have someone better. DY is not that person.
2) Why play Pearce? I don't think Ad needed the day off. We are off Mon. Maybe Pearce will be OK but I see no reason to play him especially when we needed to win today.. Additionally, Pearce didn't exactly light up AAA so I am not optimistic but you are correct that it's early.
3) We are not good enough for Sunday line ups, and even when we are the message should be that only occurs if you have won on Fri and Sat. We needed to win today, this line was not constructed to win today, maybe to eval and showcase players but winning was not the priority today. That frustrates me as a fan. We should have won 2 of these games not 0.
4) I think Hinskie needs a message, something is wrong mentally. He was Mr Hustle in Boston but now he loafs. I hope they get it worked out but it can't be with the Pirates. It should be in AAA or w/ another team.

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 Post subject: Re: June 21, 2009 Pirates (31-37) at Rockies (35-33)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:01 pm 
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BostonBuc wrote:
4) I think Hinskie needs a message, something is wrong mentally. He was Mr Hustle in Boston but now he loafs. I hope they get it worked out but it can't be with the Pirates. It should be in AAA or w/ another team.


Sure good thing he hustled, I would not would have wanted see his average under the .207 he hit in 2007

Come on...Morgan is not a good Outfielder, his mistakes are made up by his speed...If Morgan starts today he hits 2nd, meaning theres a good chance Freddy doesnt drive in 3 runs...

I have no problem with Pearce getting the start...It was a hard throwing lefty out there today, something Morgan, LaRoche, and Moss would have struggled against...

It was a close game and the team could have come out with 2 wins, but it happens, Colorado is a hot team with some very good players...

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 Post subject: Re: June 21, 2009 Pirates (31-37) at Rockies (35-33)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:02 pm 
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BostonBuc wrote:
There are too many quotes to quote but I don't disagree all that much w/ your post Thunder.

Here are some additional points for clarity:

1) If Nyjer plays today - he is stat wise the best defensive LF in the NL - the game never goes 3-3. Nyjer never makes that error and Freddy never drops the pop up. That might have changed the entire outcome. That's why Nyjer has to play regardless of offense (he should just bat #8/9 IMO) until we have someone better. DY is not that person.
2) Why play Pearce? I don't think Ad needed the day off. We are off Mon. Maybe Pearce will be OK but I see no reason to play him especially when we needed to win today.. Additionally, Pearce didn't exactly light up AAA so I am not optimistic but you are correct that it's early.
3) We are not good enough for Sunday line ups, and even when we are the message should be that only occurs if you have won on Fri and Sat. We needed to win today, this line was not constructed to win today, maybe to eval and showcase players but winning was not the priority today. That frustrates me as a fan. We should have won 2 of these games not 0.
4) I think Hinskie needs a message, something is wrong mentally. He was Mr Hustle in Boston but now he loafs. I hope they get it worked out but it can't be with the Pirates. It should be in AAA or w/ another team.


Hinske's OPS+ in Boston was 83...it's 115 this year. He was never anything special with the Red Sox. He's been decidedly better since he left, when he was with the Rays and now us.


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 Post subject: Re: June 21, 2009 Pirates (31-37) at Rockies (35-33)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:35 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
BostonBuc wrote:

Come on...Morgan is not a good Outfielder, his mistakes are made up by his speed...If Morgan starts today he hits 2nd, meaning theres a good chance Freddy doesnt drive in 3 runs...



I actually can't believe I'm defending Nyjer but here it goes FWIW. My point is that Nyjer is in the top quartile of defensive LF. This is statistically inarguable - he is actually much higher than that.

Here is a link to the data. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=n&type=0&season=2009&month=0

He has the most Put Outs of any LF in the NL by far and even after his error he has one of the highest UZR (Ultimate Zone Ratings) at his position. I personally think defensive stats can be misleading so I'm only saying he's one of the best.

Therefore, by putting in someone who is much worse defensively (DY) we are hurting the team. This is what happened today at multiple positions (1st B, and maybe RF).

My point in this entire string was the Pirates did not field the team that had the bast chance of winning today...and there is no doubt about it as Lanny would say :)

I'm frustrated by that. One week ago tonight I thought this team might really go 500 but I don't see that happening now especially if we make the expected trades.

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 Post subject: Re: June 21, 2009 Pirates (31-37) at Rockies (35-33)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:52 pm 
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BostonBuc wrote:
My point in this entire string was the Pirates did not field the team that had the bast chance of winning today...and there is no doubt about it as Lanny would say :)

I'm frustrated by that. One week ago tonight I thought this team might really go 500 but I don't see that happening now especially if we make the expected trades.


If you watched the beginning of the game you probably saw them put up the numbers of De LaRosa. Huge discrepancy between left and right handed hitters. Right handers were killing him and lefties struggled. So JR played a heavy right hand lineup.

As for Morgan's defense...despite whatever stats you have, watching him shows that if it weren't for his speed he'd be very average. He is not a smart player, and is very raw with his fundamentals. That said, there is no doubt that Young is below average at best on defense. The whole team still does dumb things too...why wouldn't Sanchez(A VETERAN) not have sunglasses with him. No excuse for not catching that pop up.


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 Post subject: Re: June 21, 2009 Pirates (31-37) at Rockies (35-33)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:12 pm 
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Of course Morgan has more putouts than any other LF. When you spend most of your time in left-center...a normal distribution of hits doesn't apply. He will get more of the CF'ers balls than most LF just due to positioning.

As an example...the Pirates are willing to trade the 10 balls (just a number...no accurate count here) that Morgan will get to in left center that might normally fall in...for the 5 or 6 down the line that a normal LF would catch that now fall in. Ignoring for a second...that Cutch is fast enough to cover some of that ground if needed.


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 Post subject: Re: June 21, 2009 Pirates (31-37) at Rockies (35-33)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:18 pm 
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BostonBuc wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
BostonBuc wrote:

Come on...Morgan is not a good Outfielder, his mistakes are made up by his speed...If Morgan starts today he hits 2nd, meaning theres a good chance Freddy doesnt drive in 3 runs...



I actually can't believe I'm defending Nyjer but here it goes FWIW. My point is that Nyjer is in the top quartile of defensive LF. This is statistically inarguable - he is actually much higher than that.

Here is a link to the data. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=n&type=0&season=2009&month=0

He has the most Put Outs of any LF in the NL by far and even after his error he has one of the highest UZR (Ultimate Zone Ratings) at his position. I personally think defensive stats can be misleading so I'm only saying he's one of the best.

Therefore, by putting in someone who is much worse defensively (DY) we are hurting the team. This is what happened today at multiple positions (1st B, and maybe RF).

My point in this entire string was the Pirates did not field the team that had the bast chance of winning today...and there is no doubt about it as Lanny would say :)

I'm frustrated by that. One week ago tonight I thought this team might really go 500 but I don't see that happening now especially if we make the expected trades.


BTW...if you check the same data source...you will find out that Adam LaRoche is below average at 1B. His UZR numbers both last season and this season are negative. Also...if you believe the numbers...Brandon Moss is a much above average fielder in RF. I think you could easily put Moss in LF on days that we see the left handed pitchers that Morgan is hitting .111 against for the last 2 months.

Simply...we aren't going to get hurt significantly defensively by sitting LaRoche once a week. Just don't sit Morgan AND Moss at the same time.


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