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 Post subject: Re: Pirates vs dodgers 6-15-13
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
I thought Leyva should have sent him.......then I saw the replay from the 3rd base point of view. Sisy is right, had the throw hit the cut off man, Martin would have been out by 20 feet. Bucfan is also right, Puig did panic and the throw ended up being about as crazy as Augusto Pinochet.

Agree on the fact that Martin is out with two good throws, but making two good throws and a tag at the plate is at least as unlikely as McKenry getting a hit. We knew that if it is runners 1st and 3rd, two outs, Pedro gets walked, P spot up next, last bat on the bench is McKenry, and the reliever is basically a ROOGY.

Further, I have seen Puig in 6 games or so. Every time thus far he has to go into the corner to get a ball - man on base or not - he panics, fumbles with the ball, and unleashes a wild throw.

SSS? Yeah, sure ... but scouts have to notice. Ball in the corner, push for the extra base.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates vs dodgers 6-15-13
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:57 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Andrew is the best player on the team. He's the fastest player on the team. Don't confuse talent or speed with hustle. I've been watching baseball for close to 50 years now. I never saw Clemente do that. I never saw Pete Rose do that. I never saw Dave Parker do that, even when his knees were just about killing him. Hell, I hate Derek Jeter, but Derek Jeter scores that run. I'll say it again; I'd sit him. It wouldn't be the first time Hurdle had to sit McCutchen for failing to hustle. Maybe the message will sink in this time. It obviously didn't the last time.

The only thing I'll come close to conceding to you on this one is that Cutch is a poor base runner. I'm not sure he still understands all of the nuances of the game, in particular with base running. He still has no idea how to get a proper lead and jump when stealing bases, which leads to him getting thrown out more than he should with his speed.

I refuse to believe you saw every single play Clemente, Rose, Parker, et. al made.

Feel free to point out where I said that I had seen every single play the Clemente, Rose, Parker, et. al. every made.

I watched a lot of baseball. I never saw any of those guys take a play off. Parker charge out of the box like he'd hit one into the gap on routine two hoppers to the second baseman. Rose didn't get the nickname Charlie Hustle by jogging.

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Today these guys are on TV every day. None of us on this board have played through a 162 game season. I have to think even the biggest hustlers in the game occasionally assume a play will be made, especially a two hopper right at a guy. This is major league baseball, not Legion ball.

All the more reason to play hard. These guys are professionals.

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Cutch's teammates have stated how hard he plays.

He does. Usually. He needs to change "usually" to "always".

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Joe Maddon, one of the most respected guys in the game, commented how much Cutch hustled in SPRING TRAINING.

Show Joe Maddon the play that we are talking about and see what he says.

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For some reason you are picking out one time where he appeared to not hustle. And again, I'm not sure it doesn't have as much to do with his baseball acumen. If you watched the replay, he was looking over his shoulder at the play instead of watching/listening to his base coach...not exactly the way they teach you.

I'm picking out one time that he cost his team a game by not hustling. It's not like it never happened before. He's been benched for doing it. I've mentioned several times on this board that he needs to stop coming out of the box assuming "double" on balls in the gap.

I remember Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla. Just about every season they would have a similar number of doubles and triples combined. In all but one season, Bonilla had more triples than Bonds, even though Bonds was much faster. Why? Bobby Bonilla would hit a ball into the gap and immediately think "triple", while Bonds would assume a double. Bonilla's way of playing the game was the right way.

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You are way off base making it sound like Cutch doesn't hustle and set an example.

Feel free to point out where I said that Cutch doesn't hustle. I said that he doesn't hustle ALL THE TIME.

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You want lack of hustle...watch the best hitter in the game today, Miguel Cabrera, when he hits a ground ball at an infielder.

Miguel Cabrera doesn't play for the Pirates. I hope he continues to jog down to first on infield grounders. When he becomes a Pirate, then I'll bitch him out for his casual way of playing the game.

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I'm old school too. That's why I hate Pedro wearing his hat like he does. Hate seeing these guys wear their pants to their heels.

I don't care about any of those things. None of them has any impact on wins or losses. Styles change. Fads come and go. I couldn't care less.

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Hate seeing all the conversations between players on opposing teams on the field...all of it... and I hate seeing them not hustle. Just think you are picking on the wrong guy here...

I'm picking on the guy who just cost the Pirates a game by not respecting the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates vs dodgers 6-15-13
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Argentum wrote:
I thought Leyva should have sent him.......then I saw the replay from the 3rd base point of view. Sisy is right, had the throw hit the cut off man, Martin would have been out by 20 feet. Bucfan is also right, Puig did panic and the throw ended up being about as crazy as Augusto Pinochet.

Agree on the fact that Martin is out with two good throws, but making two good throws and a tag at the plate is at least as unlikely as McKenry getting a hit. We knew that if it is runners 1st and 3rd, two outs, Pedro gets walked, P spot up next, last bat on the bench is McKenry, and the reliever is basically a ROOGY.

Further, I have seen Puig in 6 games or so. Every time thus far he has to go into the corner to get a ball - man on base or not - he panics, fumbles with the ball, and unleashes a wild throw.

SSS? Yeah, sure ... but scouts have to notice. Ball in the corner, push for the extra base.

I don't think that it would have taken two good throws, though. If that's the case, then I send him. I think that they get Martin with an awful throw that hits the cutoff man, followed by an awful throw that is anywhere near home plate.

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"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates vs dodgers 6-15-13
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:04 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Feel free to point out where I said that I had seen every single play the Clemente, Rose, Parker, et. al. every made.

I watched a lot of baseball. I never saw any of those guys take a play off. Parker charge out of the box like he'd hit one into the gap on routine two hoppers to the second baseman. Rose didn't get the nickname Charlie Hustle by jogging.

Cutch does exactly what you say Parker did. My point is you didn't see all of their games like you can Cutch. I'm sure there were plays here and there that they assumed would be made like Cutch did yesterday. I could care less about nicknames...doesn't mean he NEVER did something like what Cutch did yesterday.


sisyphus wrote:
I'm picking out one time that he cost his team a game by not hustling. It's not like it never happened before. He's been benched for doing it. I've mentioned several times on this board that he needs to stop coming out of the box assuming "double" on balls in the gap.

I remember Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla. Just about every season they would have a similar number of doubles and triples combined. In all but one season, Bonilla had more triples than Bonds, even though Bonds was much faster. Why? Bobby Bonilla would hit a ball into the gap and immediately think "triple", while Bonds would assume a double. Bonilla's way of playing the game was the right way.

Unfair to insinuate a comparison of Cutch to Bonds. Bonds played/acted like a conceited superstar. Cutch is not even close to having that attitude. The time Hurdle benched him was to make a point to the team in general, and I'm not sure it was his best managerial move. I think Cutch knows his speed and will turn it on if he thinks a triple is at hand. Just this weekend watching him go from first to third(twice I think) was beautiful...both speed and hustle. Hard to believe I'm even debating this topic.


sisyphus wrote:
Miguel Cabrera doesn't play for the Pirates. I hope he continues to jog down to first on infield grounders. When he becomes a Pirate, then I'll bitch him out for his casual way of playing the game.

That's fine...I was just making a comparison of a "superstar" that doesn't hustle and showing that Cutch doesn't come close to fitting that mold.


sisyphus wrote:
I don't care about any of those things. None of them has any impact on wins or losses. Styles change. Fads come and go. I couldn't care less.

Again, that's fine. I was just letting you know I also have watched baseball a long time and prefer when it is played correctly. I was always taught to play hard and also to look like a ballplayer.


sisyphus wrote:
I'm picking on the guy who just cost the Pirates a game by not respecting the game.

Blaming him for this loss for not "respecting" the game is utterly ridiculous and deserves no response...yea, I know...you got one anyway!


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates vs dodgers 6-15-13
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:04 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
I don't think that it would have taken two good throws, though. If that's the case, then I send him. I think that they get Martin with an awful throw that hits the cutoff man, followed by an awful throw that is anywhere near home plate.

How do you figure? They had ONE awful throw yesterday, overthrew the cut-off guy, went 50' up the third base line.

Martin could have walked the last 10' home if he had gone, due to ONE bad throw.


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