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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Call it Jordan, call it Palistine whatever. The point is the same, the people who lived and today live there have every right to keep their homeland. It was taken in a war by Isreal and they want a piece of it back. Not an unfair request.

Yes, they started the wars which they lost. But we don't intend on occupying Iraq forever, why should the Isreali government have the right to annex or occupy the area we call Palistine?


My history may be remiss, but I believe that the Jews occupied the area known as Israel first. Go back a few thousand years.

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but I'd like to point out that by your logic we should all go back to Europe and leave North America to the natives, and I'm not sure that Bertie has room for me on his couch.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:07 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Call it Jordan, call it Palistine whatever. The point is the same, the people who lived and today live there have every right to keep their homeland. It was taken in a war by Isreal and they want a piece of it back. Not an unfair request.

Yes, they started the wars which they lost. But we don't intend on occupying Iraq forever, why should the Isreali government have the right to annex or occupy the area we call Palistine?


My history may be remiss, but I believe that the Jews occupied the area known as Israel first. Go back a few thousand years.

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but I'd like to point out that by your logic we should all go back to Europe and leave North America to the natives, and I'm not sure that Bertie has room for me on his couch.


Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating taking this aproach. I'm simply saying that it's a slippery slope when one starts using the "[insert name here] was there first" method of deciding who stays, and who goes. It really gets hairy one you throw Pangaea into the mix. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:20 pm 
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Ahhh, my kind of discussion.

After reading the entire thread I have a few comments I'd like to toss in:

Isreal is God's chosen people and are directly related to the end times, if Isreal would get involved in an all-out war, that would signal the beginning of the end.

Liberals have this insane idea that if we just talk to countries like Iran and appease them with money or favors they would all of a sudden love us and be really nice to us. That really cracks me up. Actually it infuriates me. Essentially that is equivelant to paying the bully your lunch money. And jeez I wanted to burn Columbia Univ to the ground for letting that jaggoff come on our turf and speak his evil crap.

War is a necessary element to afford safety to us in the US. What I hate the most is when a network like CNN shows the one soldier who is complaining about not wanting to be at war. Its obvious that the soldier only joined to get the free college money and got a little more than he/she bargained for. The world essentially did what they wanted to us and our people for 8 years under Bill Clinton, US Embassies in Africa were destroyed, the USS Cole was attacked, World Trade Center attack number 1 happened, and what was our response? A few cruise missiles aimed at nothing in particular. I served in the military during the entire period of Clinton's tenure and I must say we were a despised outfit.

Forget about peace with the Arab world, their "Koran" clearly states that infidels (thats us) should be murdered and removed from the face of the earth. Just think about your extended family for a moment, aren't there family members that you despise or just don't get along with? How can there be peace with countries and a people that hate us from the start, people who are taught and bred to hate us from a young age, when there isn't peace amongst your own family, people that you love? There will be peace in the land once and for all when Christ returns and New Jerusalem is established (Revelation 21:1-10). Until then there will be wars and rumors of wars.

The real crazy thing about all this is we as Christians(speaking for myself) must love those that oppose us, BUT that does not mean that we allow them to kill us or destroy our way of life, our sanctity. The Bible doesn't instruct us to hate a person, it instructs us to hate the sin. Many Christians just can't get their head wrapped around that concept, which essentially drives many would be believers away from Christianity. But thats another topic all-together.

I want this country to stand firm in its resolve, to not allow terrorism to dictate our lives, to not allow Americans to be targeted while abroad, to destroy a tyrant and turn the country back over to the people that were at once slaves to his disgusting rule, to snuff out and bring to justice a coward who runs from cave to cave, a coward that kills innocent people trying to make a better life for themselves. I want this country to stop acting like a bunch of sissies and stand firm against countries that intend to do us or Isreal harm.

I believe that politicians are so worried about what other countries and other people think about us that they have forgotten about the people who are suffering now, good people that can't afford to buy gas because our country puts other nations concerns in front of them. I believe that politicians have lost touch with reality by putting nature and a small species of plant or animal in front of the true inhabitants of this world, humans. We need to drill for our own oil, in our own country, we need focus on providing for ourselves, in return drive the prices of goods from overseas down.

Finally, close the freakin borders. I am a big proponent of immigration, I love the diversity of various nationalities who come to America seeking a better life, legally! We need to stop giving illegals free passes, allowing them to take jobs from citizens, allowing them to kill our own citizens(ref incident in California) and wreck lives.

I believe I have ranted enough... I could go on for hours...


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:45 am 
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This weekend PBS aired a documentary on "POV" about Palestinian illegal workers in Israel. Their lives are miserable. They live away from their families, work for little pay, hide in the hills.. they admit that their leaders are not concerned about them. Palestinians are like our native Americans in the way they've been treated.

As for the immigration process my wife is not yet an American citizen. She hasn't pursued that yet because it's such a hassle for those who give up their citizenship when they return home (in this case the Philippines.) Her sister was hoping to find work here but less visas are being issued for nurses. We're thinking she will end up in Canada. I would think we need more nurses. We need to care for all these baby boomers.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:31 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Ahhh, my kind of discussion.

After reading the entire thread I have a few comments I'd like to toss in:

Isreal is God's chosen people and are directly related to the end times, if Isreal would get involved in an all-out war, that would signal the beginning of the end.

When a god comes and tells me that is so, then I'll believe it. Until then I see no more reason to base foreign policy on the Bible than I do on Norse or Greek mythology.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:29 pm 
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I have not really discussed my religious views. I consider myself a Christian.

But who decided that Isreali people were God's chosen? Does the Bible rule? and Should it? Some others think that the Quran should rule. Should it?

Try to keep in mind that both Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were Diest (believed in God but not Christ nor Christian religions. They clearly wouldn't accept the stuff about God's chosen people.)

Of course neither should be able to trump the other. It is folly to believe that because I believe something, everyone else should be bound by my beliefs. (did somebody die and make me God?)

Religion here only indicates the bias of the speaker and not the rational truth that the Greeks sought. So, everything that is predicated on that thinking is not fundamentally sound or true. When trying to determine right from wrong we need to take an unbiased apporach based solely on facts that exist for all.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:13 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Ahhh, my kind of discussion.

After reading the entire thread I have a few comments I'd like to toss in:

Isreal is God's chosen people and are directly related to the end times, if Isreal would get involved in an all-out war, that would signal the beginning of the end.

When a god comes and tells me that is so, then I'll believe it. Until then I see no more reason to base foreign policy on the Bible than I do on Norse or Greek mythology.


If there's going to be one thing that ends up destroying this country, it's going to be our blind support for Israel.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:47 am 
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Heck yeah. Why would we support the only stable democracy in the region, when there are loads of autocratic thugs we could support.

Never mind that their intelligence service is indispensible to our ability to track terrorist networks, and provide information we could not otherwise get.

The point being, that Israel is entitled to their country because they got it and defend its borders just like any successful country can do.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:50 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Heck yeah. Why would we support the only stable democracy in the region, when there are loads of autocratic thugs we could support.

Never mind that their intelligence service is indispensible to our ability to track terrorist networks, and provide information we could not otherwise get.

The point being, that Israel is entitled to their country because they got it and defend its borders just like any successful country can do.

ZM



Yeah...the same country that spies on the US, stole nuclear material from the US, and deals with America's enemies (China and Venezuela) on a regular basis.

Being cozy with Israel is like staying with a woman who cheats on you because she's rich. You might have money, but you have no dignity.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:52 am 
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Ummm. Get me if I'm wrong.

We spy on everyone, including Israel. We work with China and Venezuela. And, a number of other countries hostile to Israels' interests.

Your point?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:00 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Ummm. Get me if I'm wrong.

We spy on everyone, including Israel. We work with China and Venezuela. And, a number of other countries hostile to Israels' interests.

Your point?

ZM


My point is that Israel is not a friend of the US. They may be an uneasy ally, but they're far from a friend.

I have no problem calling them an ally, but I hate it when people call them our friends. With friends like Israel, we don't need enemies.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:07 pm 
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Israel certainly has a right to exist. There really should be no question about that.

But my point is that our blind support Israel at the expense of the Arabs is wrong and will always cause the U.S. anemosities in the middle East. The radicals in the Moslem world are clearly wrong too, but we continue to give them recruiting pluses by not reigning in the absolute power that Israel has over them and the disputed territories. OUR SELF INTEREST is in providing some territory for the Palistinians so as TO DEFUSE the POWER OF RECRUITMENT FROM THE RADICAL RIGHT IN THE ISALMIC MOVEMENT.

Let's worry about what is best for us first. Incidentally, that includes oil.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:10 pm 
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I'll say this for Israel, they have the best PR machine in the world. They've managed to convince most Americans that Israel and America are alike when in reality we're as different as can be.

But I put that on us and not them. We should be smart enough to see through the propaganda machine and we're not.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Umm..

Every time Israel has given up land, and they have on a number of occasions (something that no other country would consider), they've been met with... peace? Prosperity? Relations with their new neighbors?

Nope, more like more bombings in Tel Aviv.

The blame needs put where it belongs, with the folks dedicated to the destruction, the absolute destruction of Israel. Not with the folks who have tried to live with the Arab world since their inception as a country.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:27 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Umm..

Every time Israel has given up land, and they have on a number of occasions (something that no other country would consider), they've been met with... peace? Prosperity? Relations with their new neighbors?

Nope, more like more bombings in Tel Aviv.

The blame needs put where it belongs, with the folks dedicated to the destruction, the absolute destruction of Israel. Not with the folks who have tried to live with the Arab world since their inception as a country.

ZM


Israeli hands aren't clean in this mess. They've killed their share of women and children during the wars they've been involved in. The biggest difference between the Israelis and their enemies is that the Israelis have better PR men.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:51 pm 
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Two points, so you don't descend into ridiculous-land.

1. They don't start the wars.

2. They don't intentionally target women and children.

Unlike their neighbors.

This attempt at moral equivalency is getting to be a very weak argument.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:12 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Two points, so you don't descend into ridiculous-land.

1. They don't start the wars.

2. They don't intentionally target women and children.

Unlike their neighbors.

This attempt at moral equivalency is getting to be a very weak argument.

ZM


As far as #2 goes, you only know what they chose to tell you. If they weren't targeting women and children, then they have some horrible pilots.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:54 am 
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ZM -- their failure to compromise and work this out with the Palistinians has and will continue to result in Americans dieing in Twin Towers, Iraq and Afganistan/Pakisstan.

That should be clear to everyone.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:48 pm 
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You mean the Palestinian's refusal to compromise with them, correct? 'Cause I remember the Israeli's giving the Pals' about 99.99% of what they wanted, and all it got them was Intifada.

As for knowing what goes on, we most certainly do know more than they want to tell us. Virtually every military movement by the IDF is watched by the world.

ZM

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