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 Post subject: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:01 pm 
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In another thread someone pointed out some of the good things our country has done are these:

Freed slaves
Gave women the rifgt to vote.

We have done many great things. Those are not two to brag about.

Slavery-- The founding fathers felt slavery was wrong but refused to do the right thing. Thomas Jefferson who was a Virginian and Slave holder said that slavery was like having a wolf by the ears, you don't want to hold it but you're afraid to let it go. Took us almost hundred years to abolish this wrong-- not so commendable

Women voting rights didn't come about until WWI. So, in a country that holds itself up high as a democracy, we didn't allow women nor black men the right to vote until long after all are founding fathers were dead and gone.

No, these two are not issues that show our greatness.

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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:36 am 
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Times change and values change. When they said "All men are created equal", they meant all white males.

Today we have a different concept. We mean all humans. Some include the unborn, and some would even include animals.


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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:10 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
.

No, these two are not issues that show our greatness.


Absolutly disagree. Slavery has been around since the beginnings of human civilization. We did not invent the thing, and to think that a rickety experiment with 13 indepent colonies wrapped around a loose, relatively powerless central government could possibly take the risk of arbitrarily abolishing this practice at that time, would have caused the collapse of the country. The early politicians spent the next 100 years chipping at slavery to the point where it would have virtually disappeared without a war to try and preserve it.

The original founders did not mean "men" vis a vis "black" or "women". The original right to vote was based on property ownership. It was tough to be black and a woman in that culture, and own property, but it was done rarely.

As for women's right to vote, one again, cannot place our current values on someone of the time. The US was well ahead of most western civilization in incorporating women into politics and civilian rights.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:05 pm 
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While I appreciate your perspective, I don't know if I can agree, ZM

Europe had done away with slavery years before we did. We were not at all leaders in that equality movement.
Remember Chief Justice Tanney( Supreme Court) ruled in the 1840s that Dred Scott's right as a free man living in a non-slave state were subserviant to the property rights of his owner in a southern state. Let's see-- his basic human rights were of less consequence then his owners property rights(him). Not very enlightened was it?

I think in todays world it very much equates to rights for gays in America. Don't ask, don't tell??? Shouldn't all human beings have the same rights? Europe is again way ahead of us.

I don't know the history of woman's rights but have no reason to believe that the USA was the pioneer here either.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:06 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Absolutly disagree. Slavery has been around since the beginnings of human civilization. We did not invent the thing, and to think that a rickety experiment with 13 indepent colonies wrapped around a loose, relatively powerless central government could possibly take the risk of arbitrarily abolishing this practice at that time, would have caused the collapse of the country. The early politicians spent the next 100 years chipping at slavery to the point where it would have virtually disappeared without a war to try and preserve it.

The original founders did not mean "men" vis a vis "black" or "women". The original right to vote was based on property ownership. It was tough to be black and a woman in that culture, and own property, but it was done rarely.

As for women's right to vote, one again, cannot place our current values on someone of the time. The US was well ahead of most western civilization in incorporating women into politics and civilian rights.

ZM


Well said ZM.


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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:27 pm 
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So, if it's the fault of the culture at the time, how do you get the culture to change? It must have been right, so why don't we still have slavery?

BECAUSE PEOPLE ADVOCATED TO CHANGE THE CULTURE AND MAKE IT ACCEPT THE RIGHT THING.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:34 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
While I appreciate your perspective, I don't know if I can agree, ZM

Europe had done away with slavery years before we did. We were not at all leaders in that equality movement.


Well, the Brits had done so. But, that was about it. They, and the rest of Europe didn't mind trading and making some jack in slavery though.


Quote:
Remember Chief Justice Tanney( Supreme Court) ruled in the 1840s that Dred Scott's right as a free man living in a non-slave state were subserviant to the property rights of his owner in a southern state. Let's see-- his basic human rights were of less consequence then his owners property rights(him). Not very enlightened was it?


No, it wasn't but as you note, we were well into the chipping stage at that point as there were free states to decide about. As I'm sure you know, the states were sovereign at the time and private property was and is, the basis of our freedoms. The idea of human rights was a completely differant thing in the 1840's as to now. I believe it was about this time that the more enlightened European counterparts were chopping off heads willy nilly in France, and the Dutch and Brits and Portugese were doing a bang up job of establishing equality in Africa and the near east.

Quote:
I think in todays world it very much equates to rights for gays in America. Don't ask, don't tell??? Shouldn't all human beings have the same rights? Europe is again way ahead of us.


I'm not sure here what you are saying. Equal rights for gay folks? They have that. They can vote, own property, pay taxes just like everyone else. If your idea is to have special rights, well maybe. I wouldn't want to try and broach the idea of gay marriage in Ireland, Italy, or many other European countries.

Quote:
I don't know the history of woman's rights but have no reason to believe that the USA was the pioneer here either.


I think you confuse London and Paris and Munich with the rest of Europe.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:43 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
While I appreciate your perspective, I don't know if I can agree, ZM

Europe had done away with slavery years before we did. We were not at all leaders in that equality movement.
Remember Chief Justice Tanney( Supreme Court) ruled in the 1840s that Dred Scott's right as a free man living in a non-slave state were subserviant to the property rights of his owner in a southern state. Let's see-- his basic human rights were of less consequence then his owners property rights(him). Not very enlightened was it?


Hmm: Sub, you're a resident of West Virginia, right? A state that has been represented continuously in Congress since 1952 by Robert C. Byrd -- a man who arguably once was its most racist member, who never hid the fact that he'd held the senior title of Exalted Cyclops in the Ku Klux Klan, and who as recently as March 2001 used the "N" word in a nationally televised interview.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you yourself ever voted for him; that's none of my business. But I'm guessing that you know many people who have, since he hasn't faced any serious opposition in the past 26 years. Does that mean that West Virginians aren't so commendable for giving massive majorities to a man with such a background? Or does Senator Byrd deserve props for becoming enlightened and repenting?

Just asking.

BTW, as far as Europe is concerned, one might ask the Roma people -- over here we tend to call them gypsies -- for their take on equal rights. Or the Croat minority in Bosnia. Or the Albanians in Serbia.

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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:46 pm 
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I'm not gay but if you think that gays are treated equally in this country, you should ask a gay person. They'll talk to you about things like health care that the employer provides does not cover the partner in a committed relationship. Sound enlightened to you?

Health care coverage is a non-issue in most of Europe because they all have it not like here where 47,000,000 have none and countless others have very little. Just another problem we need to address. Doesn't make me negative for pointing out things we need to work together to improve.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Slavery and Enfrancisement
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:06 pm 
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Please don't tell me your going to 'swift boat' THE Senator. He has gotten the state a great amount of federal help for projects.

Yes, he's old and going to die soon. He should have been replaced long ago but simply because we need term limits. In fact he is kind of the poster boy for that need being expressed. No one has had a chance to beat him in any election that I remember and that's since 1968.

He is such a hero in this state that there is a statue of him in the rotunda of the state capital and there are no other statues there, nor will there be.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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