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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
I don't use CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, or any other mainstream media outlets. None of them present anything resembling the news. And talk radio is even worse. It's not even news anymore. It's opinions of people who you probably wouldn't trust to babysit your kids.


Well, I think I agree with you on that. Talk radio however usually is pretty open about it's subjectivity. That's why there are so many flavors, you can usually find what you want to hear, if that's your thing.

Jeremy wrote:
The fact is the right is now saying "Envromentalism is Socialism." That's a fact. You can go ang Google that and find who's saying it.


I think certain members of the right (and this really is an unfair term - the whole painting with a broad brush thing) are insinuating that the left environmentalist movement has been high jacked by those who can use it to push their socialist agenda. While I think there may be a little smoke there, I tend to be of the belief that most politicians, on both sides of the aisle, are too stupid to be able to perpetrate such things.

I happen to agree we have an obligation to not waste and abuse the natural resources at our disposal. However if we can utilize land with little or no ill effects on the environment, then we should.

Jeremy wrote:
Now extend that out. That makes conservation socialism. That makes recycling socialism. And that makes groups who believe in things like conservation, like the Boy Scouts, socialists.

Don't like it? Too bad. You people keep supporting the idiots who push this tripe down America's throat.


So if I "extend" this out, what you are really saying is that all people who don't agree with you are idiots. Been nice talking to ya!


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:46 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
I don't use CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, or any other mainstream media outlets. None of them present anything resembling the news. And talk radio is even worse. It's not even news anymore. It's opinions of people who you probably wouldn't trust to babysit your kids.


Well, I think I agree with you on that. Talk radio however usually is pretty open about it's subjectivity. That's why there are so many flavors, you can usually find what you want to hear, if that's your thing.

Jeremy wrote:
The fact is the right is now saying "Envromentalism is Socialism." That's a fact. You can go ang Google that and find who's saying it.


I think certain members of the right (and this really is an unfair term - the whole painting with a broad brush thing) are insinuating that the left environmentalist movement has been high jacked by those who can use it to push their socialist agenda. While I think there may be a little smoke there, I tend to be of the belief that most politicians, on both sides of the aisle, are too stupid to be able to perpetrate such things.

I happen to agree we have an obligation to not waste and abuse the natural resources at our disposal. However if we can utilize land with little or no ill effects on the environment, then we should.

Jeremy wrote:
Now extend that out. That makes conservation socialism. That makes recycling socialism. And that makes groups who believe in things like conservation, like the Boy Scouts, socialists.

Don't like it? Too bad. You people keep supporting the idiots who push this tripe down America's throat.


So if I "extend" this out, what you are really saying is that all people who don't agree with you are idiots. Been nice talking to ya!


What I'm really saying is I hate extremes. I hate extremes because they're the people who are the biggest idiots and say the dumbest things. "No borders" on the left and "The Buchanan Wall" on the right. Global Warming panic on the left and Enviromentalism is Soialism on the right. It's all stupid. But we have growing numbers of people in this country who choose to surrender their common sense and buy in to this garbage. I just can't figure it out.

I've never bought in to political parties. I'm too opionated and strong willed to spout some party line trash. I've tried it with the Dems and Repubs and it's just never worked. I've started to understand what George Washington was saying when he said political parties will be the death of democracy.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:21 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Yes, I did. I also know that you don't want a refinery built in your neighborhood, and that nobody really wants to build them any more, because it is more profitable to use existing refineries, keep supplies below demand, and sell the gas at higher prices than it is to invest billions in building new refineries so that you can sell the gas at a lower price.


You might want to check out why the proposed Yuma refinery is having so many setbacks. Hint - it's got nothing to do with keeping supplies below demand. From their website:

When will the refinery be up and running?
Once the necessary permits are obtained, Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma will immediately begin construction of the refinery - a three to four year process. Obtaining permits to build and operate the facility is not an easy task, as government regulators at all levels have developed stringent rules and guidelines that must be followed. We anticipate full operation in early 2012.

http://www.arizonacleanfuels.com/

The government makes building new refineries unprofitable. Not "big oil".

Your article proves that it takes a while to get permission to build a refinery. It does not address the cost effectiveness of building new refineries vs. using existing refineries.

Quote:
Gas is expensive because it is a dwindling resource subject to rapidly increasing demand. Opening up new sources to drilling will not solve this problem. At best it can only ameliorate it for a while. The days of cheap oil are gone forever, and nothing will bring them back. The only way to go is to find another source of energy.


Define "for a while". I've heard the alarmists spouting your position, I've also heard other highly qualified experts say that the earth still has 4 times the oil than we've already consumed.[/quote]
"For a while" means not all that long. Yes, there is still a lot of oil down there. Either your highly qualified experts forgot to mention that it's very expensive oil to obtain or else you left that part out. Eventually oil prices will rise to a point where it becomes profitable to drill for oil that isn't economically feasible today. It's already happening, but there's still a long way to go.


Quote:
By the way, the vast majority of gasoline taxes are used to fund our roads and highways. Are you suggesting welfare for drivers would be a good idea?


You're not going to win many battles using PennDOT as evidence.[/quote]
You might have a point if I had actually mentioned Penndot I didn't, because gasoline taxes are primarily used to fund roads and highways in just about every state. So, if you'd care to actually address the point instead of building a new straw man or posting another non-sequitor, are you advocating welfare for drivers or not?

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:31 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Quote:
Reuters, June 26, 2008:

Last week Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, a Republican who often sounds like a Democrat, shattered the consensus by calling for an end to a federal moratorium on oil and gas drilling along the country's outer continental shelf.


Quote:
ABC News, June 26, 2008:

Schwarzenegger, a long critic of his party on the environment, used surprisingly frank language to buck politicians who support lifting the 27-year-old ban of offshore drilling.

Your point?

Quote:
Associated Press, June 30, 2008:

The House bill would end an Outer Continental Shelf drilling moratorium that Congress has renewed every year since 1981. It covers 85 percent of the country’s coastal waters — everywhere except the central and western Gulf of Mexico and some areas off Alaska.

Your point?

Quote:

http://fossil.energy.gov/news/techlines/2006/06015-Oil_Recovery_Assessments_Released.html


March 3, 2006

Undeveloped Domestic Oil Resources Provide Foundation For Increasing U.S. Oil Supply


An analysis by Advanced Resources International, Arlington, VA, for the U.S. Department of Energy’s Office of Fossil Energy

The report, Undeveloped Domestic Oil Resources: The Foundation for Increasing Oil Production and a Viable Domestic Oil Industry, provides an estimate of total undeveloped and future technically recoverable domestic oil resources in the United States. Undeveloped domestic oil resources still in the ground total more than one trillion barrels. The resource includes undiscovered oil, "stranded" light oil amenable to CO2-EOR technologies, unconventional oil (deep heavy oil and tar sands) and new petroleum concepts (residual oil in reservoir transition zones).

This assessment originally examined the resource potential for applying state-of-the-art CO2-EOR technologies in only six basins/areas of the United States. It did not include the additional resource potential outlined in the ten basin-oriented assessments, or the recoverable resources from residual oil zones, as discussed in related reports issued by DOE in February 2006. Accounting for these, the future recovery potential from domestic undeveloped oil resources by applying EOR technology is 240 billion barrels, boosting potentially recoverable resources to 430
billion barrels.

Which part of this report addresses the added costs to drill using these state of the art technologies?

By the way, when you cite a study to support an argument it's usually a good idea to use one that was produced by folks who don't have a vested interest in the subject at hand. For example, it's not usually a good idea to use a tobacco industry study when debating the effects of smoking on health. In this case, it was probably a bad idea to cite a study that pimps for high tech drilling that was produced by a company that describes itself like this on its website:

" Advanced Resources International (ARI) is a research and consulting firm providing services related to unconventional gas (coalbed methane - CBM, gas shales, tight sands), enhanced oil recovery (EOR), and carbon sequestration (CO2 sequestration).

ARI's services bring together depth of experience, industry insights and analytic capabilities for the benefit of our worldwide clientele. Our clients include major, independent and national oil and gas companies, coal producers and utilities, technology and service providers, legal and financial firms, research organizations, consortia and academia, policy groups, and governments. "

Quote:
Sisyphus wrote: By the way, the vast majority of gasoline taxes are used to fund our roads and highways. Are you suggesting welfare for drivers would be a good idea?


Yes, actually. I agree with the suggestion repeatedly made by syndicated columnist Charles Krauthammer:

Quote:
Gasoline tax boost is best thing America just won't do
Monday, June 9, 2008 3:00 AM
By Charles Krauthammer
Washington Post Writers Group


Want to wean us off oil? Be open and honest. The British are paying $8 a gallon for gasoline. Goldman Sachs is predicting we will be paying $6 by next year. Why have the extra $2 (above the current $4) go abroad? Have it go to the U.S. Treasury as a gasoline tax and be recycled back into lower payroll taxes.

Announce a schedule of gas-tax increases of 50 cents every six months for the next two years. And put a tax floor under $4 gasoline, so that as high gas prices transform the U.S. auto fleet, change driving habits and, thus, hugely reduce U.S. demand -- and bring down world crude-oil prices -- the American consumer and the American economy reap all of the benefit.


First you write a post criticizing gas taxes, then you post this. Which am I to believe?

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:32 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
They don't just use Fox, they also use Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter.

You know, the people who would have you believe that the Boy Scouts are a bunch of little commies because they believe in preserving the enviroment.

The Boy Scouts get a pass on their environmentalism in return for their refusal to accept gays and atheists.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:16 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
They don't just use Fox, they also use Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter.

You know, the people who would have you believe that the Boy Scouts are a bunch of little commies because they believe in preserving the enviroment.

The Boy Scouts get a pass on their environmentalism in return for their refusal to accept gays and atheists.


A position which I support.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:23 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Your article proves that it takes a while to get permission to build a refinery. It does not address the cost effectiveness of building new refineries vs. using existing refineries.


Good, at least you now admit that somebody is building refinieries. Lets move on.......

sisyphus wrote:
I also know that you don't want a refinery built in your neighborhood, and that nobody really wants to build them any more, because it is more profitable to use existing refineries, keep supplies below demand, and sell the gas at higher prices than it is to invest billions in building new refineries so that you can sell the gas at a lower price.


So why is this one being built? It's a shame they can't tap into your oil industry acumen, they could save themselves $3 Billion. Think of all the roads that could be refinished with that loot.


sisyphus wrote:
"For a while" means not all that long. Yes, there is still a lot of oil down there. Either your highly qualified experts forgot to mention that it's very expensive oil to obtain or else you left that part out. Eventually oil prices will rise to a point where it becomes profitable to drill for oil that isn't economically feasible today. It's already happening, but there's still a long way to go.


Again, I think you've missed your calling. If it's there, it's obtainable. There will always be people willing to pay for gas regardless of the cost.

So in summation, you've admitted that you were a) wrong about "nobody" wanting to build new refineries b) wrong about gasoline being a dwindling resource.

Quote:
You might have a point if I had actually mentioned Penndot I didn't, because gasoline taxes are primarily used to fund roads and highways in just about every state. So, if you'd care to actually address the point instead of building a new straw man or posting another non-sequitor, are you advocating welfare for drivers or not?


The problem is this, the gasoline taxes aren't being solely used for highways and roads. Portions are used for such things as the the Mass Transit Account and reducing the national debt. But to answer your question, yes, I would pay taxes to keep the roads in the proper state of repair. However, as I've pointed out these taxes are going to other areas. I'm not to keen on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:28 am 
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Geez Sisy, stick to baseball, you are knowledgable there.

To point. And, this is from a guy who spent years in the oil patch.

1. Leases are not drilled for one of two reasons. There is nothing there (the majority), or what is there is not economically extracted. Those are capped until it is economical to do so. Don't confuse that with some conspiracy to withhold oil or gas. The price point is set at drilling, and when it is reached, it is extracted.

2. New refineries vis a vis old refineries. You do realize that our exisiting refining capacity is running about 110% of capacity, right? A slight exaggeration for sure, but there is no room, nada, none to expand withing the existing framework. About the only thing that can be done is to formulate uniformily across the nation. That would lower costs in multiple blendings and possibly speed gas to market. Though it won't increase volume significantly.

3. Between on-shore, off-shore and oil shale, the Federal government as put off limts over 30bil bbls known reserve, which usually translates after production starts, to about 60bil bbls. I'm not sure why you want that outside the pipeline.

4. Development of these reserves and continues withholding is primarily a function of large, very radical enviro groups who file amicus briefs with the most liberal courts they can find every time something comes up. It gives the congressmen who they have cultivated via massive donations, politcal cover to keep things the same.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:07 am 
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A childhood friend of mine, whom I remain in contact with, and his father own substantial property outside of Olean NY. This property has many established oil wells on it that were all capped in the past. With the increase in oil prices, they have uncapped (?) one well and have once again begun pumping oil from the well. The oil is of higher grade than light sweet crude. Why did they do this? He says the higher prices made it economically feasable to do so. There would seem to me to be many more instances like theirs.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:39 am 
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Its hot stuff out there AZ, along with central PA, its a hotbed of new drilling in old fields.

Going deeper now to the Marcellus Shale for natural gas. Almost a 100% sure hit when you drill,but its deep and you have to work the formation to get it to the surface. But at these prices....

My sister-in-law just got very wealthy in the last 3 mo. Leasing off 75 acres or so at $3000 per plus royalties.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:09 pm 
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Sisyphus, was it not you who argued that "These are sites already open to drilling, and they are not being exploited because it is more profitable to sell oil from existing sources at higher prices"?

My point (which I'd have thought was understandable enough) is that these sites aren't being "exploited" because for the past 27 years drilling there has been banned. I expect that to remain the case until public pressure overwhelms the influence of the environmental lobby.

As to the question of gasoline taxes: I resent having to pay governments any more of my hard-earned income than necessary. But I don't have the option of refusing. And I'm too close to retirement to put my house on the market and move into Boston so I can take public transportation to work. (Next month, the house beside mine will have been empty for a year. Prospective buyers don't even come to look at it anymore.)

Governments never are willing to do with less revenue, so the gas taxes aren't going to be cut. They'll only increase, especially if the Democrats win big on Nov. 4. In a growing number of states, for God's sake, the legislatures are even discussing imposing tolls on roads that don't have them now because people are driving less and gas tax collections are dropping.

Ergo, I like the idea of putting a floor under the price of gas -- with the revenue overage being remitted back in the form of lower payroll taxes that would help me better afford to fill up twice a week. But I wouldn't exacly call it a welfare program.

Sadly, I also realize it isn't going to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
They don't just use Fox, they also use Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter.

You know, the people who would have you believe that the Boy Scouts are a bunch of little commies because they believe in preserving the enviroment.

The Boy Scouts get a pass on their environmentalism in return for their refusal to accept gays and atheists.


A position which I support.

We disagree, then.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:00 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Your article proves that it takes a while to get permission to build a refinery. It does not address the cost effectiveness of building new refineries vs. using existing refineries.


Good, at least you now admit that somebody is building refinieries. Lets move on.......

sisyphus wrote:
I also know that you don't want a refinery built in your neighborhood, and that nobody really wants to build them any more, because it is more profitable to use existing refineries, keep supplies below demand, and sell the gas at higher prices than it is to invest billions in building new refineries so that you can sell the gas at a lower price.


So why is this one being built? It's a shame they can't tap into your oil industry acumen, they could save themselves $3 Billion. Think of all the roads that could be refinished with that loot.

That's one refinery in how many years? Yep, companies sure are rushing to build refineries.


sisyphus wrote:
"For a while" means not all that long. Yes, there is still a lot of oil down there. Either your highly qualified experts forgot to mention that it's very expensive oil to obtain or else you left that part out. Eventually oil prices will rise to a point where it becomes profitable to drill for oil that isn't economically feasible today. It's already happening, but there's still a long way to go.


Again, I think you've missed your calling. If it's there, it's obtainable. There will always be people willing to pay for gas regardless of the cost.

So in summation, you've admitted that you were a) wrong about "nobody" wanting to build new refineries b) wrong about gasoline being a dwindling resource.[/quote]
What is it you're smoking? You think that oil is not a dwindling resource? ROFLMAO.

Quote:
You might have a point if I had actually mentioned Penndot I didn't, because gasoline taxes are primarily used to fund roads and highways in just about every state. So, if you'd care to actually address the point instead of building a new straw man or posting another non-sequitor, are you advocating welfare for drivers or not?


The problem is this, the gasoline taxes aren't being solely used for highways and roads. Portions are used for such things as the the Mass Transit Account and reducing the national debt. But to answer your question, yes, I would pay taxes to keep the roads in the proper state of repair. However, as I've pointed out these taxes are going to other areas. I'm not to keen on that.[/quote]
I see. You don't like taxation. You prefer user fees. That's fine with me. You can just start things off by exempting me from school taxes and every other sort of tax that supports children, since I'm childless. I shouldn't be paying for interstates, as I don't drive. I opposed invading Iraq, so I would be getting a nice chunk of tax money back for that, except we put that one on the charge card. I didn't see the point on giving massive tax breaks to oil companies at a time when they were achieving record profits annually, and, once again, I don't drive, so I'd like to have my share of those tax breaks returned.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:25 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Geez Sisy, stick to baseball, you are knowledgable there.

To point. And, this is from a guy who spent years in the oil patch.

1. Leases are not drilled for one of two reasons. There is nothing there (the majority), or what is there is not economically extracted. Those are capped until it is economical to do so. Don't confuse that with some conspiracy to withhold oil or gas. The price point is set at drilling, and when it is reached, it is extracted.

I don't think there is any sort of conspiracy to withhold oil or gas. I must have failed to express myself clearly. I'm trying to say exactly what you just said. Unlike some here, I don't think that there are very many people who are willing to pay any price for oil.

Quote:
2. New refineries vis a vis old refineries. You do realize that our exisiting refining capacity is running about 110% of capacity, right? A slight exaggeration for sure, but there is no room, nada, none to expand withing the existing framework. About the only thing that can be done is to formulate uniformily across the nation. That would lower costs in multiple blendings and possibly speed gas to market. Though it won't increase volume significantly.

I don't think that we're allowed to exaggerate or use hyperbole in this thread, as I have already been scolded for saying that nobody wants to build refineries. :roll:

I'm not sure that I see your point on refinery capacity, though. Even if you could wave a magic wand and increase refinery capacity by 50% overnight, what would that accomplish? Sure, the overcapacity would be good to have in an emergency, but where will the oil to feed that extra capacity come from? Wouldn't the increased demand for oil to feed those refineries just drive the price per barrel higher?

Quote:
3. Between on-shore, off-shore and oil shale, the Federal government as put off limts over 30bil bbls known reserve, which usually translates after production starts, to about 60bil bbls. I'm not sure why you want that outside the pipeline.

4. Development of these reserves and continues withholding is primarily a function of large, very radical enviro groups who file amicus briefs with the most liberal courts they can find every time something comes up. It gives the congressmen who they have cultivated via massive donations, politcal cover to keep things the same.

ZM

You lost me somewhere in point three. Could you clarify?

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
A childhood friend of mine, whom I remain in contact with, and his father own substantial property outside of Olean NY. This property has many established oil wells on it that were all capped in the past. With the increase in oil prices, they have uncapped (?) one well and have once again begun pumping oil from the well. The oil is of higher grade than light sweet crude. Why did they do this? He says the higher prices made it economically feasable to do so. There would seem to me to be many more instances like theirs.

Yep. There are bunches of Pennsylvania wells returning to production, too.

As to why those types of wells were capped, it is my understanding that it isn't economical to run low volume wells at a time when the price per barrel is low. I'm not 100% sure I have that right, though, so somebody correct me if I'm don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Sisyphus, was it not you who argued that "These are sites already open to drilling, and they are not being exploited because it is more profitable to sell oil from existing sources at higher prices"?

My point (which I'd have thought was understandable enough) is that these sites aren't being "exploited" because for the past 27 years drilling there has been banned. I expect that to remain the case until public pressure overwhelms the influence of the environmental lobby.

No. My point is that sites that are already leased and open to drilling that are being left idle, so I see no point in opening up more sites to drilling until those existing sites are exploited.

Quote:
As to the question of gasoline taxes: I resent having to pay governments any more of my hard-earned income than necessary. But I don't have the option of refusing. And I'm too close to retirement to put my house on the market and move into Boston so I can take public transportation to work. (Next month, the house beside mine will have been empty for a year. Prospective buyers don't even come to look at it anymore.)

I don't see why I should be required to pay taxes to support your decision to live so far from work.

Quote:
Governments never are willing to do with less revenue, so the gas taxes aren't going to be cut. They'll only increase, especially if the Democrats win big on Nov. 4. In a growing number of states, for God's sake, the legislatures are even discussing imposing tolls on roads that don't have them now because people are driving less and gas tax collections are dropping.

Yep, taxes are going to go up. Somebody has to pay for the deficits run up by six years of Republican domination of Congress and the White House, and the longer we wait to pay, the worse it will be.

[quote[Ergo, I like the idea of putting a floor under the price of gas -- with the revenue overage being remitted back in the form of lower payroll taxes that would help me better afford to fill up twice a week. But I wouldn't exacly call it a welfare program.[/quote]
Dude, paying money to the government with your right hand and taking it back with your left isn't going to leave you ahead of the game. In fact, you'd probably lose money with that program, because I'd be getting the same lower payroll taxes without first paying the higher gas prices.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:52 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
That's one refinery in how many years? Yep, companies sure are rushing to build refineries..


http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/04/sd_county_approves_rezoning_for_new_oil_refinery/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Latest+news

OOPS! :o

That's just the US. Care to talk about the new refineries springing-up around the world?

sisyphus wrote:
"For a while" means not all that long. Yes, there is still a lot of oil down there. Either your highly qualified experts forgot to mention that it's very expensive oil to obtain or else you left that part out. Eventually oil prices will rise to a point where it becomes profitable to drill for oil that isn't economically feasible today. It's already happening, but there's still a long way to go.


This is laugable, I ask you to define "for a while" and your answer is you meant to say "not all that long". I'm afraid to ask you what "not all that long" means.

sisyphus wrote:
What is it you're smoking? You think that oil is not a dwindling resource? ROFLMAO.


Dwindling in the short term? No. The short term being a very conservative 50-100 years. I also wouldn't be surprised if the reserves last for a few hundred years. Back in the 60's I'll bet you were crowing about how the oil reserves would be gone by 2000. The fact of the matter is no one knows for sure, and the ones who may know, aren't telling. So unless you are willing to put a real time frame on your doom and gloom prognostications, your arguement is nothing more than thinly veiled scare tactics, all blather, no substance.

sisyphus wrote:
I see. You don't like taxation. You prefer user fees. That's fine with me. You can just start things off by exempting me from school taxes and every other sort of tax that supports children, since I'm childless. I shouldn't be paying for interstates, as I don't drive. I opposed invading Iraq, so I would be getting a nice chunk of tax money back for that, except we put that one on the charge card. I didn't see the point on giving massive tax breaks to oil companies at a time when they were achieving record profits annually, and, once again, I don't drive, so I'd like to have my share of those tax breaks returned.


:roll: That's not what I said at all. Comprehension skills a bit lax? I said that I think taxes collected for a particular purpose, should be used for that particular purpose. A gas tax should not be paying down the national debt.

I'll bet you have the movie "The Day After Tomorrow" on Blueray and a signed hard back copy of "An Inconvenient Truth" on your living room coffee table.

Hate the "rich"...............................


Last edited by Argentum on Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:55 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
I'm not 100% sure I have that right, though, so somebody correct me if I'm don't.


You'm don't. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:01 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Yep, taxes are going to go up. Somebody has to pay for the deficits run up by six years of Republican domination of Congress and the White House, and the longer we wait to pay, the worse it will be.


Quote:
You don't like taxation. You prefer user fees. That's fine with me. You can just start things off by exempting me from school taxes and every other sort of tax that supports children, since I'm childless. I shouldn't be paying for interstates, as I don't drive. I opposed invading Iraq, so I would be getting a nice chunk of tax money back for that, except we put that one on the charge card. I didn't see the point on giving massive tax breaks to oil companies at a time when they were achieving record profits annually, and, once again, I don't drive, so I'd like to have my share of those tax breaks returned.


Ah, OK, now we see where you're coming from.

Don't suppose you'd care to defend the fact that since your guys took control of both houses of Congress, the futures price of a barrel of crude has gone from $56 to $136.04 (it was $145.29 as trading closed last week) and the average price of gasoline from $2.41 a gallon to $4.11?

But Nancy Pelosi said when she was about to become Speaker of the House that Democrats had "a plan to lower gas prices." I imagine we'll see it taking effect any day now, right? ;)

And the record oil company profits they love to bloviate about: According to the nonpartisan Tax Foundation, those haven't exceeded the industry's combined federal, state, and local tax payments since 1983.

_________________
If you think nobody notices you and you're all alone, try not paying your bills.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:16 am 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Yep, taxes are going to go up. Somebody has to pay for the deficits run up by six years of Republican domination of Congress and the White House, and the longer we wait to pay, the worse it will be.


Quote:
You don't like taxation. You prefer user fees. That's fine with me. You can just start things off by exempting me from school taxes and every other sort of tax that supports children, since I'm childless. I shouldn't be paying for interstates, as I don't drive. I opposed invading Iraq, so I would be getting a nice chunk of tax money back for that, except we put that one on the charge card. I didn't see the point on giving massive tax breaks to oil companies at a time when they were achieving record profits annually, and, once again, I don't drive, so I'd like to have my share of those tax breaks returned.


Ah, OK, now we see where you're coming from.

Don't suppose you'd care to defend the fact that since your guys took control of both houses of Congress, the futures price of a barrel of crude has gone from $56 to $136.04 (it was $145.29 as trading closed last week) and the average price of gasoline from $2.41 a gallon to $4.11?

But Nancy Pelosi said when she was about to become Speaker of the House that Democrats had "a plan to lower gas prices." I imagine we'll see it taking effect any day now, right? ;)

And the record oil company profits they love to bloviate about: According to the nonpartisan Tax Foundation, those haven't exceeded the industry's combined federal, state, and local tax payments since 1983.


And the Republicans did such a bang up job before the Democrats took over right? :roll:

Neither party has a freaking clue how to fix anything right now. There are only a handful of Senators and Congressman out there who are smart enough to see what's going on. What's sad is that neither of the Presidential candidates fall in to that category.


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