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 Post subject: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:44 am 
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Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use.....

The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants!

That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.....

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the Border....

When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq

Tell him if he want s to come to America then he must serve a tour in the military....

Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it.....

After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country.....

He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot.....

This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves.. ...

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq
anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo.....


Problem solved

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:18 pm 
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Amen! It is so simple. For some reason I bet people will role their eyes to this.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:18 am 
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Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use? That is horse crap. He has no intention or desire to help America's working class at all. If he and his cronies had their way America would be more like Mexico. Children would be working as they did in the early 1900s. He and the majority of elites are about class, not nation.

We're obviously too dependent on petroleum. We should be looking at biodiesel or vegetable oil.. something! It won't happen because the rich can't make any money from a green society.

As for the illegal immigrants you might want to penalize the businesses who hire them. I am not convinced that they gobble our benefits like some people suggest. Don't most of them hide out in fear of being discovered? This country was founded by illegal immigrants. We should show them at least a little compassion.

Here's the best idea. Force all these American companies that move to the third world to pay those workers more.. pay them for however efficient they are.. if Mexican or Chinese workers are 50% as productive as Americans they should be paid 50% of American wages. But that's not good capitalism.

Admittedly I've not been to California but I've been to some areas of Ohio where immigrants work in fields. There are some nearby in Celeryville, Ohio. They stay in Willard (hometown of Charlie Frye.) Americans will not do that work for minimum wage. Immigrants are paid two dollars an hour!

The lives of those people crossing our borders are so unpleasant back home that many would gladly join our military.
Filipino nationals are already allowed to enlist in the U.S. armed forces.

I've been to the Philippines. The majority of Americans would be shocked by the level of poverty there. We had/have a hand in shaping their economy by supporting Marcos and those regimes who followed.

Er.. getting a bit off the subject but I wanted to say that the plight of the third world is often not the fault of the people in those countries. We created Noriega and Saddam.. the CIA has overthrown democratically elected leaders.. we encourage our U.S. based companies to exploit the third world.. we even dump our waste on the Third World.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:53 pm 
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Whew, that's quite a rant!

Ollie, in your view, is there anything this country has done right?

Just asking.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:21 pm 
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Ollie makes a lot of great points.

They'll be lost on most of the people here, but they're still great points.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:17 pm 
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Bob, glad you asked. We've done many good things in over two hundred years.. allowed people religious freedom, freed the slaves, gave women the right to vote, improved the rights of workers, kept up our national parks, beat the Russians in hockey..

I feel bad about my ranting, especially the day after Independence Day. I tend to think of the glass as being half empty. I love the land.. there's no place like the Rocky Mountains.. we have so many types of climates and landscapes. Not crazy about our foreign policies and aspects of government, but Americans are basically good people. I love the cultural diversity we have here but we don't see enough of it in the mainstream media.

When people say negative things I tend to follow suit just to stir things up though I tend to side with the oppressed.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:56 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Ollie makes a lot of great points.

They'll be lost on most of the people here, but they're still great points.


Will they indeed? Why so? Do you consider us a bunch of narrow-minded ignoramuses?

Ollie's rant, as Bob accurately called it, is just that and many holes can be picked in it. Being a rant, it is not really an argument but certainly could be the basis for the start of one.

Consider his comment about bio-fuel. The entire world is already suffering from a food shortage, some of which is undoubtedly caused by the switch to growing fuel crops.
Also, if Bush really were the dedicated oil-man that his detractors claim, why has he not already opened up the huge reserves that the US has and, perhaps more importantly, increased refining capacity?

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:26 am 
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If the plan is to cut oil consumption here I will still say that it is not intended for the benefit of Americans, though it could eventually have some positive impact on us. I am thinking that the capitalists are hoping to build up China even more. Isn't it their goal to sell more cars in China? Our involvement in Afghanistan is to keep the pipeline pumping to China.

Bertie, you're correct about biofuel. I could have used a better alternative fuel as an example.

There is no food shortage however, sir. The real reason for the world hunger problem is poverty. This requires political solutions. Third world nations export food to the developed nations as their people go hungry. Nations like Brazil export soybeans to feed Europe and Japan, etc. allowing their own people to starve. The politicians of the third world are no different than our politicians here. They care more about their own wallets than serving the people. Of course many are dictators who were not elected by the people, but supported by Europe or U.S.

The world's food supply is abundant, not scarce. The world production of grain and many other foods is sufficient to provide at least 4.3 pounds of food per person a day, according to the Institute for Food and Development Policy in California. In countries that have extra food people are starving. The majority of the world's malnourished children live in countries with food surpluses. See if your library has the book "World Hunger: Twelve Myths."

People tend to think of places like Bangladesh, a country which truly does have a food shortage. But most countries produce more than enough food to take care of their people. For instance Nigeria. Foreign companies pay the leaders of African nations huge sums to take all the resources, leaving nothing for the people. This isn't all about food. In the Congo people die in unsafe tin mines, the tin in our Coca Cola cans.

I didn't intend to start any argument. I meant to respond to the opening message in this thread and got off track.
I believe in Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that "all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights"


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:53 am 
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Bertie wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Ollie makes a lot of great points.

They'll be lost on most of the people here, but they're still great points.


Will they indeed? Why so? Do you consider us a bunch of narrow-minded ignoramuses?

No, only the Republicans. :lol:

Quote:
Ollie's rant, as Bob accurately called it, is just that and many holes can be picked in it. Being a rant, it is not really an argument but certainly could be the basis for the start of one.

Consider his comment about bio-fuel. The entire world is already suffering from a food shortage, some of which is undoubtedly caused by the switch to growing fuel crops.
Also, if Bush really were the dedicated oil-man that his detractors claim, why has he not already opened up the huge reserves that the US has and, perhaps more importantly, increased refining capacity?

Because somebody in his administration has read Adam Smith, and understands that increasing the supply of oil will reduce the price of oil. The oil companies certainly understand that. After all, even with all the outcry to open up more offshore drilling sites, at least 2/3 of the offshore sites that are open for exploitation are currently sitting idle.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:18 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Because somebody in his administration has read Adam Smith, and understands that increasing the supply of oil will reduce the price of oil. The oil companies certainly understand that. After all, even with all the outcry to open up more offshore drilling sites, at least 2/3 of the offshore sites that are open for exploitation are currently sitting idle.


And the reason for that is . . . the fanatical environmental movement and its lapdogs in Congress who block every proposal to drill offshore and in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, to limit as much production as possible from the Bakken field in western North and South Dakota, and to exploit the shale oil reserves in Colorado and Utah.

Oh, yes, and to build new refineries -- not one of which has come online since 1976. We have to import 13 percent of our gasoline a year from other countries because we lack the capacity to refine enough to meet demand on our own: Did you know that?

Ask yourselves: Is it really just the environment these people want to affect?

I thought it also might be interesting to some of y'all to know (in case you didn't already) that depending on where you live, more than half a buck a gallon of what you pay for gasoline at the pump is thanks to federal, state, and local taxes.

The federal tax is 18.4 cents/gal., which we all pay. On top of that, those who live in Pennsylvania fork over 31.1 cents a gallon in state tax, plus a share of the 18 cents/gal. tax on oil company franchise operations, courtesy of your elected representatives in Harrisburg.

In Ohio, Ollie pays 26 cents a gallon in state taxes. Right about now, I'm guessing that 44 cents off a gallon of gas would look pretty good to him.

In Nebraska, IA Pirate pays 25.4 cents. In Chicago, No. 9 not only pays 19 cents/gal. in state tax, but also 6 percent sales tax on his total fuel buy AND a share of the 3 percent "underground storage" tax his service station is charged. AZ and Jeremy have to pay 18 cents/gal. in state tax, plus a share of the 1 cent-a-gallon underground storage tax their dealers are charged. Down in Florida, Prince of Pittsburgh also pays 14.5 cents/gal., plus a share of the taxes his dealer is charged for "environmental inspection" and a coastal (or inland, as the case may be) protection fund. And that doesn't count a local option tax that can push the price up by as much as 46 cents a gallon.

It's tough for me to see where the oil companies are to blame for any of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:44 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Because somebody in his administration has read Adam Smith, and understands that increasing the supply of oil will reduce the price of oil. The oil companies certainly understand that. After all, even with all the outcry to open up more offshore drilling sites, at least 2/3 of the offshore sites that are open for exploitation are currently sitting idle.


And the reason for that is . . . the fanatical environmental movement and its lapdogs in Congress who block every proposal to drill offshore and in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, to limit as much production as possible from the Bakken field in western North and South Dakota, and to exploit the shale oil reserves in Colorado and Utah.

Oh, yes, and to build new refineries -- not one of which has come online since 1976. We have to import 13 percent of our gasoline a year from other countries because we lack the capacity to refine enough to meet demand on our own: Did you know that?

Ask yourselves: Is it really just the environment these people want to affect?

I thought it also might be interesting to some of y'all to know (in case you didn't already) that depending on where you live, more than half a buck a gallon of what you pay for gasoline at the pump is thanks to federal, state, and local taxes.

The federal tax is 18.4 cents/gal., which we all pay. On top of that, those who live in Pennsylvania fork over 31.1 cents a gallon in state tax, plus a share of the 18 cents/gal. tax on oil company franchise operations, courtesy of your elected representatives in Harrisburg.

In Ohio, Ollie pays 26 cents a gallon in state taxes. Right about now, I'm guessing that 44 cents off a gallon of gas would look pretty good to him.

In Nebraska, IA Pirate pays 25.4 cents. In Chicago, No. 9 not only pays 19 cents/gal. in state tax, but also 6 percent sales tax on his total fuel buy AND a share of the 3 percent "underground storage" tax his service station is charged. AZ and Jeremy have to pay 18 cents/gal. in state tax, plus a share of the 1 cent-a-gallon underground storage tax their dealers are charged. Down in Florida, Prince of Pittsburgh also pays 14.5 cents/gal., plus a share of the taxes his dealer is charged for "environmental inspection" and a coastal (or inland, as the case may be) protection fund. And that doesn't count a local option tax that can push the price up by as much as 46 cents a gallon.

It's tough for me to see where the oil companies are to blame for any of this.

Taxes are not the reason for the price of oil doubling in the span of 2 years, and lower taxes are not going to keep the price of oil from going up. Blaming taxes is a scapegoat.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
It's tough for me to see where the oil companies are to blame for any of this.


Control.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:41 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Taxes are not the reason for the price of oil doubling in the span of 2 years, and lower taxes are not going to keep the price of oil from going up. Blaming taxes is a scapegoat.


Ah, but I didn't. In your neverending eagerness to correct other people, you impute too much to what I wrote.

There are numerous factors behind the rapid rise in the price of oil, among them soaring demand in China and India. Another is that speculators are assuming a continuing lack of will on the part of the US to increase production.

But, drawing on your already vast and growing lawyerly skills, you already knew that.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:09 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Because somebody in his administration has read Adam Smith, and understands that increasing the supply of oil will reduce the price of oil. The oil companies certainly understand that. After all, even with all the outcry to open up more offshore drilling sites, at least 2/3 of the offshore sites that are open for exploitation are currently sitting idle.


And the reason for that is . . . the fanatical environmental movement and its lapdogs in Congress who block every proposal to drill offshore and in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, to limit as much production as possible from the Bakken field in western North and South Dakota, and to exploit the shale oil reserves in Colorado and Utah.

No, Bob, that isn't it. These are sites already open to drilling, and they are not being exploited because it is more profitable to sell oil from existing sources at higher prices.

Quote:
Oh, yes, and to build new refineries -- not one of which has come online since 1976. We have to import 13 percent of our gasoline a year from other countries because we lack the capacity to refine enough to meet demand on our own: Did you know that?

Yes, I did. I also know that you don't want a refinery built in your neighborhood, and that nobody really wants to build them any more, because it is more profitable to use existing refineries, keep supplies below demand, and sell the gas at higher prices than it is to invest billions in building new refineries so that you can sell the gas at a lower price.

Shortly after I moved to California in 1999 there was a local refinery accident which caused gas prices to jump 20 cents a gallon in a single day, from $1.29 to $1.49. A few weeks later there was a second refinery accident, and prices went up another 20 cents that same day, all in anticipation of future shortages. So Californians were paying an extra 40 cents a gallon for their gasoline. But gasoline from those same refineries was being exported to Asia at the same time.

Corporations are not in business to perform any public service. They are in business to turn profits for their stockholders. There isn't anything wrong with that. Corporations are not immoral. They are amoral. They will do whatever it takes to turn a profit. So ask yourself why all those offshore drilling sites that have already been leased to oil companies are sitting idle right now before you tell me that the solution to all of our problems is to lease them offshore sites to sit idle.

Quote:
Ask yourselves: Is it really just the environment these people want to affect?

Ask yourself if it might be a better idea to get your information from a wide variety of sources, then evaluate them, than it is to rely on Fox.

Quote:
I thought it also might be interesting to some of y'all to know (in case you didn't already) that depending on where you live, more than half a buck a gallon of what you pay for gasoline at the pump is thanks to federal, state, and local taxes.

The federal tax is 18.4 cents/gal., which we all pay. On top of that, those who live in Pennsylvania fork over 31.1 cents a gallon in state tax, plus a share of the 18 cents/gal. tax on oil company franchise operations, courtesy of your elected representatives in Harrisburg.

In Ohio, Ollie pays 26 cents a gallon in state taxes. Right about now, I'm guessing that 44 cents off a gallon of gas would look pretty good to him.

In Nebraska, IA Pirate pays 25.4 cents. In Chicago, No. 9 not only pays 19 cents/gal. in state tax, but also 6 percent sales tax on his total fuel buy AND a share of the 3 percent "underground storage" tax his service station is charged. AZ and Jeremy have to pay 18 cents/gal. in state tax, plus a share of the 1 cent-a-gallon underground storage tax their dealers are charged. Down in Florida, Prince of Pittsburgh also pays 14.5 cents/gal., plus a share of the taxes his dealer is charged for "environmental inspection" and a coastal (or inland, as the case may be) protection fund. And that doesn't count a local option tax that can push the price up by as much as 46 cents a gallon.

It's tough for me to see where the oil companies are to blame for any of this.

Dude, the price of gasoline didn't jump because taxes on gasoline went up. The price of gasoline went up while gas taxes remained stable. Gas is expensive because it is a dwindling resource subject to rapidly increasing demand. Opening up new sources to drilling will not solve this problem. At best it can only ameliorate it for a while. The days of cheap oil are gone forever, and nothing will bring them back. The only way to go is to find another source of energy.

By the way, the vast majority of gasoline taxes are used to fund our roads and highways. Are you suggesting welfare for drivers would be a good idea?

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:12 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Willton wrote:
Taxes are not the reason for the price of oil doubling in the span of 2 years, and lower taxes are not going to keep the price of oil from going up. Blaming taxes is a scapegoat.


Ah, but I didn't. In your neverending eagerness to correct other people, you impute too much to what I wrote.

There are numerous factors behind the rapid rise in the price of oil, among them soaring demand in China and India. Another is that speculators are assuming a continuing lack of will on the part of the US to increase production.

But, drawing on your already vast and growing lawyerly skills, you already knew that.

If taxes have nothing to do with the rising price of oil, then why did you go to such length to demonize gas taxes in a post about the cost of oil? You realize that you just admitted to posting a strawman argument, don't you?

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:58 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Yes, I did. I also know that you don't want a refinery built in your neighborhood, and that nobody really wants to build them any more, because it is more profitable to use existing refineries, keep supplies below demand, and sell the gas at higher prices than it is to invest billions in building new refineries so that you can sell the gas at a lower price.


You might want to check out why the proposed Yuma refinery is having so many setbacks. Hint - it's got nothing to do with keeping supplies below demand. From their website:

When will the refinery be up and running?
Once the necessary permits are obtained, Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma will immediately begin construction of the refinery - a three to four year process. Obtaining permits to build and operate the facility is not an easy task, as government regulators at all levels have developed stringent rules and guidelines that must be followed. We anticipate full operation in early 2012.

http://www.arizonacleanfuels.com/

The government makes building new refineries unprofitable. Not "big oil".

Quote:
Gas is expensive because it is a dwindling resource subject to rapidly increasing demand. Opening up new sources to drilling will not solve this problem. At best it can only ameliorate it for a while. The days of cheap oil are gone forever, and nothing will bring them back. The only way to go is to find another source of energy.


Define "for a while". I've heard the alarmists spouting your position, I've also heard other highly qualified experts say that the earth still has 4 times the oil than we've already consumed.


Quote:
By the way, the vast majority of gasoline taxes are used to fund our roads and highways. Are you suggesting welfare for drivers would be a good idea?


You're not going to win many battles using PennDOT as evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:03 pm 
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Quote:
Reuters, June 26, 2008:

Last week Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, a Republican who often sounds like a Democrat, shattered the consensus by calling for an end to a federal moratorium on oil and gas drilling along the country's outer continental shelf.


Quote:
ABC News, June 26, 2008:

Schwarzenegger, a long critic of his party on the environment, used surprisingly frank language to buck politicians who support lifting the 27-year-old ban of offshore drilling.


Quote:
Associated Press, June 30, 2008:

The House bill would end an Outer Continental Shelf drilling moratorium that Congress has renewed every year since 1981. It covers 85 percent of the country’s coastal waters — everywhere except the central and western Gulf of Mexico and some areas off Alaska.


Quote:

http://fossil.energy.gov/news/techlines/2006/06015-Oil_Recovery_Assessments_Released.html


March 3, 2006

Undeveloped Domestic Oil Resources Provide Foundation For Increasing U.S. Oil Supply


An analysis by Advanced Resources International, Arlington, VA, for the U.S. Department of Energy’s Office of Fossil Energy

The report, Undeveloped Domestic Oil Resources: The Foundation for Increasing Oil Production and a Viable Domestic Oil Industry, provides an estimate of total undeveloped and future technically recoverable domestic oil resources in the United States. Undeveloped domestic oil resources still in the ground total more than one trillion barrels. The resource includes undiscovered oil, "stranded" light oil amenable to CO2-EOR technologies, unconventional oil (deep heavy oil and tar sands) and new petroleum concepts (residual oil in reservoir transition zones).

This assessment originally examined the resource potential for applying state-of-the-art CO2-EOR technologies in only six basins/areas of the United States. It did not include the additional resource potential outlined in the ten basin-oriented assessments, or the recoverable resources from residual oil zones, as discussed in related reports issued by DOE in February 2006. Accounting for these, the future recovery potential from domestic undeveloped oil resources by applying EOR technology is 240 billion barrels, boosting potentially recoverable resources to 430
billion barrels.


Quote:
Sisyphus wrote: By the way, the vast majority of gasoline taxes are used to fund our roads and highways. Are you suggesting welfare for drivers would be a good idea?


Yes, actually. I agree with the suggestion repeatedly made by syndicated columnist Charles Krauthammer:

Quote:
Gasoline tax boost is best thing America just won't do
Monday, June 9, 2008 3:00 AM
By Charles Krauthammer
Washington Post Writers Group


Want to wean us off oil? Be open and honest. The British are paying $8 a gallon for gasoline. Goldman Sachs is predicting we will be paying $6 by next year. Why have the extra $2 (above the current $4) go abroad? Have it go to the U.S. Treasury as a gasoline tax and be recycled back into lower payroll taxes.

Announce a schedule of gas-tax increases of 50 cents every six months for the next two years. And put a tax floor under $4 gasoline, so that as high gas prices transform the U.S. auto fleet, change driving habits and, thus, hugely reduce U.S. demand -- and bring down world crude-oil prices -- the American consumer and the American economy reap all of the benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:40 am 
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They don't just use Fox, they also use Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter.

You know, the people who would have you believe that the Boy Scouts are a bunch of little commies because they believe in preserving the enviroment.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:55 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
They don't just use Fox, they also use Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter.

You know, the people who would have you believe that the Boy Scouts are a bunch of little commies because they believe in preserving the enviroment.


If you think that the right leaning media believe the Boy Scouts are commies, you're severely misinformed. You must get your news solely from CNN.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
They don't just use Fox, they also use Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter.

You know, the people who would have you believe that the Boy Scouts are a bunch of little commies because they believe in preserving the enviroment.


If you think that the right leaning media believe the Boy Scouts are commies, you're severely misinformed. You must get your news solely from CNN.


I don't use CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, or any other mainstream media outlets. None of them present anything resembling the news. And talk radio is even worse. It's not even news anymore. It's opinions of people who you probably wouldn't trust to babysit your kids.

The fact is the right is now saying "Envromentalism is Socialism." That's a fact. You can go ang Google that and find who's saying it. Now extend that out. That makes conservation socialism. That makes recycling socialism. And that makes groups who believe in things like conservation, like the Boy Scouts, socialists.

Don't like it? Too bad. You people keep supporting the idiots who push this tripe down America's throat.


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