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 Post subject: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:40 am 
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Some would argue that ESPN's coverage this year was an over-the-top love fest for this conference.

The Big East had 9 teams ( NINE! ) seeded in the top 24 NCAA tournament teams. Pitt (#1), Notre Dame (#2), Syracuse (#3), UConn (#3), Louisville (#4), St. John's (#6), Cincinnati (#6) and Georgetown (#6).

So far, those nine teams have one win over a team seeded #6 or higher (UConn over Cincinnati). Only 3 of those teams remain alive in the tournament. Collectively, their record is 7-6 in the tournament. Those eight wins include victories over a #16, a #15, a #14, a #12, a #11 and another #14. The 6 losses are against a #13, #11, #11, #8, #4 and #3.

Notably, those nine teams are an underwhelming 4-4 against "mid-major" conferences. Not a particularly strong statement by the conference generally proclaimed to be head-and-shoulders above the rest of the competition.

On WV and Cincinnati have played teams from major conferences in both rounds. WV(#5) beat #12 Clemson and lost to #4 Kentucky. No shame in that. Cincinnati (#6) beat #11 Missouri and lost to #3 UConn. No shame in that either.

Villanova (#9) lost to #8 George Mason. No big deal. A #8/#9 matchup is close to a toss up so that loss is not embarrassing by any means. And Marquette (#11) beating #6 Xavier was a nice win.

I fully expect Notre Dame and Syracuse to advance today and that the Sweet Sixteen will include 3 Big East teams (UConn is already there). A conference having 18% of the final 16 teams is nothing to sneeze at. That being written, this so-called "superior" conference - I remember reading stories of 4 Big East teams in the Final Four - is eating some humble pie thus far.

I'm not arguing that the Big East isn't a fantastic basketball conference. It is.
I'm not arguing that the Big East isn't the deepest basketball conference. It is.
I'm not arguing that the eventual champion won't be a Big East team. (I have ND/Duke in my final game and IT IS KILLING ME TO PICK THOSE TEAMS)

I'm just saying that maybe, just maybe, there is quality hoops being played elsewhere and that the conference hasn't come close to living up to the hype when the chips are on the line. Again.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Anything can happen in the tournament. The reason for the Big East hype is justified. Look at their regular season record against the top RPI teams and the major conferences.

The difference this season is not one team is heads above the rest. But maybe that's true for all of college basketball.

I don't see it has humble pie. If UConn or Notre Dame or Cuse goes on and wins it all, is that going to justify the conference standing? Of course not. In one game, anything can happen and the tournaments all about matchups.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:41 am 
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Hype not justified. Big East with only two teams in the Sweet Sixteen. ACC in a supposed "down" year? Three teams in the Sweet Sixteen and an overall record of 7-1.

When it comes to the Big Dance, look to the ACC for your champ -- the conference has produced 5 out of the last 9 teams that cut down the nets.


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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:33 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Hype not justified. Big East with only two teams in the Sweet Sixteen. ACC in a supposed "down" year? Three teams in the Sweet Sixteen and an overall record of 7-1.

When it comes to the Big Dance, look to the ACC for your champ -- the conference has produced 5 out of the last 9 teams that cut down the nets.


But that doesn't mean the ACC is the best conference. In fact, the ACC was probably the fifth best conference this season. It has been very down the past few years. You can be the best conference without having the best team. The number of good teams in the Big East is ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:40 am 
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I love it when folks use a one and done format for individual teams, to try and rank conferences.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:22 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
When it comes to the Big Dance, look to the ACC for your champ -- the conference has produced 5 out of the last 9 teams that cut down the nets.


Maybe because they have the two most popular CBB programs and get a ton of calls from the refs... maybe.

ZelieMike wrote:
I love it when folks use a one and done format for individual teams, to try and rank conferences.


Exactly.

Having two Big East head-to-head games didn't help them either.

I'm not trying to defend the Big East, but to claim that they're 'overrated' or something similar, because most of their teams have happened to lose one game in a single elimination format, is folly.

They play the best college basketball for 90% of the season and a huge dose of chance decides the other 10%. That's the game and that's why it's played.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:45 pm 
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Ridiculous.

The NCAA tournament determines the champion, just like the NFL playoffs determine the champion. We use the latter to judge teams, conferences and divisions. Indeed, when the Jets and Pats met and the Steelers and Ravens met in the divisional round of the AFC playoffs, everyone agreed that spoke to the strength of those teams and the strength of the AFC East and AFC North.

The same judgments may be made in the NCAA tournament. Florida State, the third place team in the ACC, beat Notre Dame, the second place team in the Big East. The only victory by a Big East team over an ACC team in this tourney was WVU over Clemson (after Clemson won a First Four game), and the Mountaineers promptly lost to Kentucky.

One can argue that the Big East has more "good" teams than other conferences, I suppose, but what good is that if those teams rarely win championships? The ACC is known for producing "great" teams that win championships. And Duke (2), Carolina (2) and Maryland (1) have all won titles over the last ten years, collecting an incredible 50% of the total championships in the decade.

I'll take the conference that produces champions, thanks. The one-and-done format does not somehow lessen the value of a champion; just ask Super Bowl winners.


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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:54 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Maybe because they have the two most popular CBB programs and get a ton of calls from the refs... maybe.


The refs did it!

Ah, the cry of the loser. Maybe Duke's a great program because they recruit great players, run a successful system and are led by the best coach in game. No? Oh, right, it must be those conspiratorial, biased refs.

Please.

ZelieMike wrote:
They play the best college basketball for 90% of the season and a huge dose of chance decides the other 10%. That's the game and that's why it's played.


Why does chance play more of a role in a game in March than a game in December? The game is the same; the pressure and (largely due to pressure) the result is different.

Champions are crowned in March and April. I don't care if the Big East dominates December through February. Great teams rise to the occasion of a lethal one-and-done tournament.


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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:59 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I'm not arguing that the Big East isn't a fantastic basketball conference. It is.
I'm not arguing that the Big East isn't the deepest basketball conference. It is.
I'm not arguing that the eventual champion won't be a Big East team. (I have ND/Duke in my final game and IT IS KILLING ME TO PICK THOSE TEAMS)

I'm just saying that maybe, just maybe, there is quality hoops being played elsewhere and that the conference hasn't come close to living up to the hype when the chips are on the line. Again.


Agree.

Of course, some people want you to ignore the tournament that is used to crown the national champion when judging teams and conferences. I guess it's meaningless that the ACC has produced 5 of the last 10 NCAA men's basketball champions.


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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:37 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Of course, some people want you to ignore the tournament that is used to crown the national champion when judging teams and conferences. I guess it's meaningless that the ACC has produced 5 of the last 10 NCAA men's basketball champions.



Nobody said it's meaningless to produce a National Champion. Like previously stated, you can have the best team in the country and not be the best conference. Look, Kansas just might win the title but that doesn't mean the Big 12 was the best conference this season. Here is how the standings played out this season. It isn't even worth arguing.

1. North Carolina
2. Duke
3. Florida St.
4. Virginia Tech
5. Clemson
6. Boston Coll.
7. Maryland
8. Virginia
9. Miami (FL)
10. N.C. State
11. Georgia Tech
12. Wake Forest

1. Pittsburgh
2. Notre Dame
3. Syracuse
4. Louisville
5. St. John's
6. Cincinnati
7. West Virginia
8. Georgetown
9. Connecticut
10. Villanova
11. Marquette
12. Seton Hall
13. Rutgers
14. Providence
15. South Florida
16. DePaul

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:42 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Of course, some people want you to ignore the tournament that is used to crown the national champion when judging teams and conferences.


Nobody is ignoring it, but a one and done format in college basketball is unprecise in determining a champ.

The NCAA Tournament, while fantastic and and better than the BCS, is not 'perfect'.

It is quite possibly, however unlikely, that a 16 seed could win it all, but that would not make that team (who would probably be sporting a terrible regular season record) the best in all the land (especially since they would be coming from a weak conference) or their conference the best of that year.

It simply means they played the best during the tournament.

Likewise, just because the Big East has laid a big egg in this years tournament does not mean they aren't (or were not this year) the best conference in CBB.

J_C_Steel wrote:
I guess it's meaningless that the ACC has produced 5 of the last 10 NCAA men's basketball champions.


It's not 'meaningless', but one should consider that it may be becuase Duke/UNC play in a weaker conference, therefore they normally get 1-2-or-3 seeds and have an easier route to the final rounds.

And due to their high exposure, they frequently get the best recruits and always remain on top. The Big East teams have to fight amongst one another for top recruits, Duke and UNC practically own the ACC and NCAA recruiting.

And like it or not, they draw ratings and we know that the NCAA is not exactly squeaky clean, so I don't doubt that they get some 'calls that go their way', etc.

I'm not saying Duke and UNC haven't 'earned their titles' or aren't good programs, because they obviously are, but they are the Yankees of NCAA CBB.

They win because they have a number of competitive advantages and to ignore this is absurd.

The ACC is not the best conference in CBB, it simply has two of the best (and perennial contending) teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:23 pm 
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There is a great amount of parity in college basketball. There are no truly great and dominant teams anymore. All the dominant players either sign out of HS or are gone after 1 maybe 2 years of college. Bill Walton had an interesting point on Dan Patrick the other day. He felt basketball should adopt the same rule as applies to baseball, in that if you go to school then you couldn't be drafted until after your junior year. However it may reduce some of the excitement of the tourny with so many close games in the early rounds and the ability of the mid major teams to compete. I think you might end up with 8 or 10 super teams that would distance themselves from the others. JMHO 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:25 pm 
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Perhaps my joy at watching yet another group of Big East teams bow out early is due to the hype and the claim that any of the top half of the Big East would dominate any other conference. I say b.s. The Big East is deeper due to having 16 teams. Play week in/week out in the Big 10 and there is going to be similarly tough competition with a few candy asses (like Iowa).

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:47 am 
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As a Louisville basketball fan I watched tons of Big East basketball. But I love college basketball in general and watched lots of other games as well. The Big East did not have tons of individual talent this year. Lots of hard working, overachieving teams. However this is a down year for college basketball in general talent wise. The Big Ten played a terrible brand of basketball this year. They have a dominant team(one of maybe 3), had another good team in Wisconsin, and would have had another in Purdue without the Hummel injury. Otherwise they don't have any other good teams. Michigan St was awful this year, as was Illinois. Penn St, with all those seniors was still awful. Michigan seems to be on the rise, but the bottom four were terrible. The ACC has two really good teams, and then a bunch of average teams. So even in a down year the Big East had far better teams overall(and yes, partially due to the larger league).

In the tournament, especially with so few dominant teams this year, anything can happen. I assure you that Marquette was by far the worst team out of the 11 Big East teams to make the tournament. But there they are...still standing. It doesn't mean anything! And it doesn't diminish the great season teams had even if they get upset in the tournament. The fun and excitement of the tournament is the one and done feel it has. It certainly doesn't mean a thing about conference strength or whether you had a good season or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:21 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Of course, some people want you to ignore the tournament that is used to crown the national champion when judging teams and conferences. I guess it's meaningless that the ACC has produced 5 of the last 10 NCAA men's basketball champions.

It is meaningless, at least to this discussion. What a conference has done in prior years is irrelevant to how it should be graded this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:18 am 
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With four sweet-sixteen games left and another three rounds to go the 'score' is tied at:

Big East: 2
ACC: 2

But let the record show that the two conferences will have teams facing head-to-head tomorrow night and that mighty Duke just got beat down in epic fashion by a Pac-10 team...

EDIT: Personally, I would find it hilarious if Marquette beat UNC and FSU was the last ACC team standing. Then the two 'worst' teams from the two conferences would be left.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:42 pm 
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ACC crushes Big East, but 'mighty' ACC falls to VCU...

ACC and Big East down to one team each, the same as two mid-majors and the Pac-10 (who had a down year). SEC has TWO teams left.

Maybe this one-and-done format tourney is not the best way to judge conference strength?

Nah...

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:30 am 
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There goes the champion theory for the Big East. UConn won 11 straight and deserved this championship. Not too bad for the 9th place team.

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:31 am 
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:lol:

Speaking of humble pie, who's ready to eat crow?

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 Post subject: Re: Big East Basketball - a dose of "humble pie"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:20 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
:lol:

Speaking of humble pie, who's ready to eat crow?


I was talking about the Big East's past underperformance in the NCAA tournament. I was right about that.

This year, despite many Big East teams getting knocked out early, the best Big East team proved to be the best in the country. Well done by UConn.


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