Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Damn BBF, and I held you in such high regard... Mrs. BBF thinks your an idiot? Then it must be so because women are always right(or so they believe).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:48 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Damn BBF, and I held you in such high regard... Mrs. BBF thinks your an idiot? Then it must be so because women are always right(or so they believe).


Actually, that's the nicest thing she has said to me in the past month :lol: :P ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:48 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Damn BBF, and I held you in such high regard... Mrs. BBF thinks your an idiot? Then it must be so because women are always right(or so they believe).


Actually, that's the nicest thing she has said to me in the past month :lol: :P ;)

At least she said something to you in the past month...

;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:03 am 
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BBF wrote:
Hey Piratefan:

Just so you know, he is baiting you into this argument. He has heard at least 10 times from 10 different people how his argument is simply illogical, and instead of showing us how he is right and we are wrong (because I suspect that he can't), he simply repeats the argument. Then when people tell him they are sick of how repetitive the argument it, he will say something about how repetitive 15 losing seasons are. Then people get sick of him and ignore him, and he sits in waiting for a new person to come along and repeat the whole damn process.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:22 am 
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Bertie wrote:
This board has as its strap-line "Proud fans of a 121-year old tradition".

So the board is designed to cater for those who sees themselves as such. You obviously don't - so why are you always on it, posting the same-old, same-old?


I totally agree with the sentiments about the Bucs not being the worst team in pro sports...if you look at the history. But the first paragraph says "Here is a list of the 10 worst sports franchises CURRENTLY in operation. Clearly, they are by far the worst organizatin in sports as we speak. If you're looking historically, they are nowhere close. The Pirates are one of the proud all-time organizations in MLB. But as of this moment, they're a pathetic laughinstock with not even the slightest hint of improving. Based on how they are doing their rankings they are absolutely the worst.
How can anyone say they are proud to be a fan of the Pirates the past 15 years? If your kid has bad grades, gets in trouble you're not going to be proud, but he is still your kid. The Pirates are still the only team I've ever been a fan of. This is a message board....people voice their ideas, opinions. Who should bat 5th, why didnt so & so pinch hit and all the other topics....what makes one more relevant than the other? Sure most of what my posts in this section(Rontunda) are the same-old same old. Why? Since 1993 its been the same-old, same old and its became crystal clear since PNC opened that nothing with my team(my kid who fails year after year)has no intention and has shown no action to improve their ways to return to make one be proud.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:41 am 
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What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself. What more would you like the guy to do? He forced out McClatchy, had Littlefield and Tracy removed along with 3/4 of the organizations upper management. Encouraged full scale changes to PBC operations. While you sit here and bash him, he is trying to do the very thing you are clamoring about. Sorry my friend that it doesn't happen in a snap. Rome wasn't built in a day. And don't give me this crap about him being involved for years, you know thats a load of crap. Nutting established himself before the 2007 season, indicating that he was going to do an analysis of the organization. What he seen of 2007 he did not like, then subsequently made wholesale changes. Sure on this board posts are equally important as another but what people are sick of on here are the baseless rants of yourself and a few others on the same issue, without proof or validation. Additionally, you never provide a solution or your own blueprint for the success of the team. In any arena, complaints are disregarded if there isn't first, credibility and second, a well thought out solution idea. THAT is what causes people to ignore you, because with each post, your credibility(whatever is left), fades. You may think that is cool or you feel like some kind of rebel, but honestly, its childish. Now from some of your posts, I believe that you are an educated man, one that can provide insight and thoughtful approaches to certain topics, so why the antics. If this is the way you want to continue, thats fine, but there are only a select few of us that still entertain you and that number is dwindling. I would cetainly give creedence to your argument against Nutting if you come up with sound evidence proving that his is doing something unique to virtually every owner in baseball, or if you have an effective idea on how he and the rest of management could have improved the club, on the field, this year. Otherwise its a dead topic, move on, lets talk about something different.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:53 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself. What more would you like the guy to do? He forced out McClatchy, had Littlefield and Tracy removed along with 3/4 of the organizations upper management. Encouraged full scale changes to PBC operations. While you sit here and bash him, he is trying to do the very thing you are clamoring about. Sorry my friend that it doesn't happen in a snap. Rome wasn't built in a day. And don't give me this crap about him being involved for years, you know thats a load of crap. Nutting established himself before the 2007 season, indicating that he was going to do an analysis of the organization. What he seen of 2007 he did not like, then subsequently made wholesale changes. Sure on this board posts are equally important as another but what people are sick of on here are the baseless rants of yourself and a few others on the same issue, without proof or validation. Additionally, you never provide a solution or your own blueprint for the success of the team. In any arena, complaints are disregarded if there isn't first, credibility and second, a well thought out solution idea. THAT is what causes people to ignore you, because with each post, your credibility(whatever is left), fades. You may think that is cool or you feel like some kind of rebel, but honestly, its childish. Now from some of your posts, I believe that you are an educated man, one that can provide insight and thoughtful approaches to certain topics, so why the antics. If this is the way you want to continue, thats fine, but there are only a select few of us that still entertain you and that number is dwindling. I would cetainly give creedence to your argument against Nutting if you come up with sound evidence proving that his is doing something unique to virtually every owner in baseball, or if you have an effective idea on how he and the rest of management could have improved the club, on the field, this year. Otherwise its a dead topic, move on, lets talk about something different.


OK to address the questions and issues you've mentioned: The whole organization is a mess void of talent from top to bottom and I would trade as many players on the roster who wont be here 2 to 3 years from now for young prospects and stop drafting the "right" player for the Pirates and draft the best player regardless of the cost to sign them. That solution is drastic and the team for sure will suck, but as of right now what is the difference? Clean House. That means the players.
As per Nutting is concerned, since 1996, his or his Dad's money has been the main influence on the limitations on player salary and keeping them at or near the bottom of payroll which for the most part goes hand in hand with losing. Layers below changed? Maybe the front office, but the players for the most part are the same.....and they are as a whole, proven losers. Meanwhile as the team sucks along, Nutting makes a yearly 15-20 million dollar profit....giving you a pathetic team that you say you love. And the new prez says the profit is paying off debt. The end result of that is in his pockets. You fail to see what the Nutting family's influence on this team has been. McClatchy was the front man and his hands were tied along with past GMs and managers. See a follow up post in the other sports section Steelers Draft about being a proud fan. Again people are sick of my rants, so they ignore. Are you not sick of how this once proud team and tradition has been made into a pathetic laughing stock?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Now there you go, you have a thought out solution. In theory, "selling off" your top talent at this level is a way to stockpile talent in the organization. But there are those here that refute that by saying that the ownership should try and win every year. But how? Our team lacks sufficient talent throughout the organization that leaves us without any other recourse but to trade away our top tier guys. But, Bay, Nady, and others were all coming off questionable, in some cases terrible years. NH wasn't in the position to get any type of return that was desireable. Now I certainly agree with you that guys are going to have to be traded this year, but at the right time. Sort of like Real Estate Investing. Back to trying to win every year, our team is in no position to suceed at both trying to win and stockpiling talent at the same time, its either one or the other. You choose stockpiling, so do I, and I am sure many others will agree as well.

As far as the 15-20M profit, I find that to be an unbelieveable sum of money for this club to "clear", especially when this team is only 7-10 years away from almost being the Carolina Pirates. I am not sure where this information is coming from, but I really find it hard to believe. The only thing I have read over the past 10 years was that the pirates cleared 5M(don't remember what year) and did not place it into anything baseball related. I did actually write the Post-gazette with complaints that this money(supposedly from revenue sharing) was to be put back into the PBC not into anyones pocket. I am a strong proponent of any moneys received through revenue sharing must be pumped into the ballclub with no exceptions. The whole idea of revenue sharing is to enhance the game by bringing competition a little closer.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:42 am 
Piratefan13 wrote:
What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself.


Not totally true Piratefan13. He removed the GM, President and Scouting director. Basically the layer immediately beneath him. He kept virtually all the scouts and GM assistants.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:54 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself.


Not totally true Piratefan13. He removed the GM, President and Scouting director. Basically the layer immediately beneath him. He kept virtually all the scouts and GM assistants.


Elmer, how do you know that some of those guys aren't quality guys? Even so, if they don't fullfill their duties, we will probably see some more of NH's "guys" over the next few years. I don't think you need to get to concerned with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:58 pm 
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You couldnt get rid of everyone, you still need some sort of assessment and people with some experience in the front office to help handle the transition...just because your boss is bad, doesnt mean you are...if your boss tells you (X) is your job...you do (X)...

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:03 pm 
I agree. You can't get rid of everyone. But they didn't get rid of ANY GM Special Assistants etc. I don't think that's good.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:07 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
What you fail to see BH is that Nutting witnessed the decline of this once great tradition and finally decided to remove all layers below him and try and return this culture back to its rich tradition himself.


Not totally true Piratefan13. He removed the GM, President and Scouting director. Basically the layer immediately beneath him. He kept virtually all the scouts and GM assistants.


Elmer, how do you know that some of those guys aren't quality guys? Even so, if they don't fullfill their duties, we will probably see some more of NH's "guys" over the next few years. I don't think you need to get to concerned with that.


I don't know if they are quality guys or not and my guess is you don't either. What we do know is that the team has been horrible and these guys were part of the scouting process that got us to horrible, so I'm just looking at the evidence.

Also, if they're going to keep so many of the old scouts, etc., they need to stop with the "changing the culture of losing" propaganda because so many parts that made up that culture remain. Not the high profile parts, but the hands-on scouting parts which, to me, is just as much of a concern.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:09 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I agree. You can't get rid of everyone. But they didn't get rid of ANY GM Special Assistants etc. I don't think that's good.


Yes but he brought in Chuck Tanner as a Senior Adviser to the GM

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:11 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree. You can't get rid of everyone. But they didn't get rid of ANY GM Special Assistants etc. I don't think that's good.


Yes but he brought in Chuck Tanner as a Senior Adviser to the GM


As well as that guy from the Twinkies...Corrigan???...who is widely respected in the league. I recall reading something about NH leaning on that guy more than any other advisor. Just because they didn't make massive changes doesn't mean the important changes weren't made.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:15 pm 
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None of us know whether they are good or not and dumping them for the sake of dumping them does not make sense...

The scouts last year made the recommendation to go with Wieters, and DL did not listen to them and went with Moskos instead...

Who knows if these draft moves happened prior, but like I said you cant get rid of everyone...once some more time settles in, moves will be made if these assistants aren't doing their jobs...

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Quote:
Mickey White joined the Pirates as their scouting director in 1998, had his first draft in 1999, and picked Sean Burnett in the first round. Over the next three years, Mickey’s drafts were considered some of the best in organizational history.


I wonder if any of them are holdovers from Mickey White's tenure. Would be really nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:20 pm 
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When David Littlefield was hired as the Pirates GM in 2001, he took over a farm system that was ranked 19th best by BA. Littlefield began retooling his front office and hired Ed Creech as Scouting Director and Brian Graham as Director of Player Development.

Despite the fact Graham had only one year of MLB front office management experience, Graham took over a system that wasn’t “rated highly by national baseball publications and the
Quote:
organization's best young players [were] in the lower minors.” In the ‘lower minors’ meaning, White’s drafts were starting to make an impact.

The 2002 draft was a bag of mixed nuts. Scouting Director Mickey White, who had been demoted to a scout by Littlefield when Creech was hired, had BJ Upton on the draft board as the Pirates first round pick, seeminly with Littlefield’s approval. Ed Creech decided that the Pirates couldn’t wait five years for Upton and drafted Bryan Bullington instead. Creech was quoted as saying:

"Honestly, this was a little more difficult than I had anticipated."

Mickey White promptly resigned.


This gives us proof that advisors or scouts want to draft one way and scouting directors blow them off. This could have been the case last year.

More from the article.

Whole article here http://buccoblog.mlblogs.com/archives/2006/02/farm_aid.html

I know its BuccoBlog(not the most authoritative blog but nonetheless)


Last edited by Piratefan13 on Thu May 08, 2008 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:53 pm 
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BBF wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree. You can't get rid of everyone. But they didn't get rid of ANY GM Special Assistants etc. I don't think that's good.


Yes but he brought in Chuck Tanner as a Senior Adviser to the GM


As well as that guy from the Twinkies...Corrigan???...who is widely respected in the league. I recall reading something about NH leaning on that guy more than any other advisor. Just because they didn't make massive changes doesn't mean the important changes weren't made.

Don't forget the most recent addition: Dan Fox as Director of Baseball Systems Development.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:17 pm 
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You know what I hate about these articles, though. I hate that they always rank the Minnesota Twins as one of the worst franchises. Yeah, their owner is a royal cheapskate, and they never keep anyone once they reach free agency age, but at least they win consistently. I only wish the Pirates could suck like that. Certainly there could have been another choice for their spot (The Buffalo Bills maybe? possibly the Chicago Blackhawks?)

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