Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

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 Post subject: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:05 am 
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http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8098 ... 162&ATT=49

Top 10: Worst franchises in pro sports

1. Pittsburgh Pirates

Never mind championships, pennants or division titles, the Pittsburgh Pirates haven't even had a winning season in 15 years. One more losing season and the Pirates will tie the record for most consecutive losing seasons among the four major sports. They continually field one of the youngest and most inexperienced rosters in the league and are always rebuilding. The black and yellow team colors fit their plan of constantly being under construction.

Puzzling personnel plays: Signing Derek Bell, Jeromy Burnitz and Tony Armas, Jr.; and trading Aramis Ramirez.

Remember ... 1997: The closest the Pirates have come to 83 wins (otherwise known as a winning season) was in 1997. They were expected to push 90 to 100 losses, but ended up as one of the league's irrelevant surprises when they finished with 79 wins. The entire team salary was $9 million, which was less than what Albert Belle made that season.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:18 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8098378/Top-10:-Worst-franchises-in-pro-sports?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

Top 10: Worst franchises in pro sports

1. Pittsburgh Pirates

Never mind championships, pennants or division titles, the Pittsburgh Pirates haven't even had a winning season in 15 years. One more losing season and the Pirates will tie the record for most consecutive losing seasons among the four major sports. They continually field one of the youngest and most inexperienced rosters in the league and are always rebuilding. The black and yellow team colors fit their plan of constantly being under construction.

Puzzling personnel plays: Signing Derek Bell, Jeromy Burnitz and Tony Armas, Jr.; and trading Aramis Ramirez.

Remember ... 1997: The closest the Pirates have come to 83 wins (otherwise known as a winning season) was in 1997. They were expected to push 90 to 100 losses, but ended up as one of the league's irrelevant surprises when they finished with 79 wins. The entire team salary was $9 million, which was less than what Albert Belle made that season.

Ironic that you keep harping that their failure to spend is the problem when the best team they've had in 15 years had a payroll of $9M, isn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:31 am 
The 97 Pirates are one of my favorite Bucco teams ever! I'm all about being efficient with your money, but I think it's silly to use that team as an example of how to do things. "The Freak Show" was great, but certainly an exception to the rule.

I don't see how any real Pirates fan can defend the lack of spending. (I'm not talking about spending stupidly, they are two different things).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:39 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Ironic that you keep harping that their failure to spend is the problem when the best team they've had in 15 years had a payroll of $9M, isn't it?


I've never said the Pirates need to spend like a NY team. However they should be near the teams in their division.
Being at or near the bottom of payroll and in the standings for the most part(yes there are some exceptions)go hand in hand.
The Pirates are bad from the major league team down through the minors. I have stated that they need to trade away whatever talent they have on the major league roster for young prospects. I agree with the build from within type of plan. Problem is by all accounts there is not much to build from. The only thing that has taken place is a new FO, which has done nothing as per any type of improvement. All you hear about is accountability. Who makes ownership accountable? I never get an answer to the question.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:46 am 
bullishhitter wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Ironic that you keep harping that their failure to spend is the problem when the best team they've had in 15 years had a payroll of $9M, isn't it?


I've never said the Pirates need to spend like a NY team. However they should be near the teams in their division.
Being at or near the bottom of payroll and in the standings for the most part(yes there are some exceptions)go hand in hand.
The Pirates are bad from the major league team down through the minors. I have stated that they need to trade away whatever talent they have on the major league roster for young prospects. I agree with the build from within type of plan. Problem is by all accounts there is not much to build from. The only thing that has taken place is a new FO, which has done nothing as per any type of improvement. All you hear about is accountability. Who makes ownership accountable? I never get an answer to the question.


To add to your point BH, the "new FO" is partially new, but it's partially smoke and mirrors.

The GM and President are new. The "new" ownership is actually the man who has been essentially in charge for years and part of the ownership group since 96. There really is no "new ownership." Also, most of the scouting staff and assistant GMs are the same ones from years past.

Yes, the people evaluating the talent -- talent evaluation has been a major problem according to virtually everyone -- remain in place. Brilliant.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:44 am 
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Who makes ownership accountable? I never get an answer to the question.


Nobody... Owning the Pirates is not a Democracy, its a Dictatorship. You don't like it? Too bad. Go somewhere else. The sooner you get this in your head BH the easier life will come for you. Its Nuttings money, if he wants to spend it or if he wants to keep it, its his choice alone. I am not defending the guy here, just informing you of reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:00 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
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Who makes ownership accountable? I never get an answer to the question.


Nobody... Owning the Pirates is not a Democracy, its a Dictatorship. You don't like it? Too bad. Go somewhere else. The sooner you get this in your head BH the easier life will come for you. Its Nuttings money, if he wants to spend it or if he wants to keep it, its his choice alone. I am not defending the guy here, just informing you of reality.


Where does Nutting get his money from? Here is the reality...it comes from the FANS...and that means YOU...directly or indirectly. Sure he gets money from the lux tax and from internet/TV revenue(a result from all MLB fans)But the money from local TV/radio which is based on ratings from fans and most important from the ticket buying fans.
Owning the Pirates is a business. You dont like what is going on, yet you keep supporting with your time or money how the business is run. I'm not the type to be a fan of another team, but I'm not going to support a sham like you and others blindly do.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:07 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
Who makes ownership accountable? I never get an answer to the question.


Nobody... Owning the Pirates is not a Democracy, its a Dictatorship. You don't like it? Too bad. Go somewhere else. The sooner you get this in your head BH the easier life will come for you. Its Nuttings money, if he wants to spend it or if he wants to keep it, its his choice alone. I am not defending the guy here, just informing you of reality.


Where does Nutting get his money from? Here is the reality...it comes from the FANS...and that means YOU...directly or indirectly. Sure he gets money from the lux tax and from internet/TV revenue(a result from all MLB fans)But the money from local TV/radio which is based on ratings from fans and most important from the ticket buying fans.
Owning the Pirates is a business. You dont like what is going on, yet you keep supporting with your time or money how the business is run. I'm not the type to be a fan of another team, but I'm not going to support a sham like you and others blindly do.



Ok hero... stop going to games, petition the entire region to boycott the games. The joker will just fold up the franchise and take it elswhere. Then where will we be at? I love baseball and I love the Pirates, your damn right I am going to keep watching, keep supporting my team. See, you don't have that kind of love of the game, and it shows.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:43 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:

Ok hero... stop going to games, petition the entire region to boycott the games. The joker will just fold up the franchise and take it elswhere. Then where will we be at? I love baseball and I love the Pirates, your damn right I am going to keep watching, keep supporting my team. See, you don't have that kind of love of the game, and it shows.


Hey Piratefan:

Just so you know, he is baiting you into this argument. He has heard at least 10 times from 10 different people how his argument is simply illogical, and instead of showing us how he is right and we are wrong (because I suspect that he can't), he simply repeats the argument. Then when people tell him they are sick of how repetitive the argument it, he will say something about how repetitive 15 losing seasons are. Then people get sick of him and ignore him, and he sits in waiting for a new person to come along and repeat the whole damn process.

Please, don't feed the bull.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:00 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Ok hero... stop going to games, petition the entire region to boycott the games. The joker will just fold up the franchise and take it elswhere. Then where will we be at? I love baseball and I love the Pirates, your damn right I am going to keep watching, keep supporting my team. See, you don't have that kind of love of the game, and it shows.


The joker will not move the team, nor will a new owner if the joker sells the team. The PNC lease prohibits it. It would cost a large sum of money to leave. If you love baseball you can watch a baseball game almost anywhere. As stated you love the Pirates and blinded by that love

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:32 pm 
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This board has as its strap-line "Proud fans of a 121-year old tradition".

So the board is designed to cater for those who sees themselves as such. You obviously don't - so why are you always on it, posting the same-old, same-old?

We get it.
We aren't stupid (maybe a little mad, but not stupid. BBF is not even really an "idiot").

Your constant harping on the same derogatory theme is troll-like.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
The 97 Pirates are one of my favorite Bucco teams ever! I'm all about being efficient with your money, but I think it's silly to use that team as an example of how to do things. "The Freak Show" was great, but certainly an exception to the rule.

I don't see how any real Pirates fan can defend the lack of spending. (I'm not talking about spending stupidly, they are two different things).

Are there any other businesses besides baseball clubs that you think are obligated to lose money?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:19 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Ironic that you keep harping that their failure to spend is the problem when the best team they've had in 15 years had a payroll of $9M, isn't it?


I've never said the Pirates need to spend like a NY team. However they should be near the teams in their division.
Being at or near the bottom of payroll and in the standings for the most part(yes there are some exceptions)go hand in hand.
The Pirates are bad from the major league team down through the minors. I have stated that they need to trade away whatever talent they have on the major league roster for young prospects. I agree with the build from within type of plan. Problem is by all accounts there is not much to build from. The only thing that has taken place is a new FO, which has done nothing as per any type of improvement. All you hear about is accountability. Who makes ownership accountable? I never get an answer to the question.

Who makes ownership accountable? Why, you do, of course, and fans who think like you. You don't seem to be doing a very good job, though. Perhaps we should be holding you guys accountable.

LOL.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:22 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Ok hero... stop going to games, petition the entire region to boycott the games. The joker will just fold up the franchise and take it elswhere. Then where will we be at? I love baseball and I love the Pirates, your damn right I am going to keep watching, keep supporting my team. See, you don't have that kind of love of the game, and it shows.


The joker will not move the team, nor will a new owner if the joker sells the team. The PNC lease prohibits it. It would cost a large sum of money to leave. If you love baseball you can watch a baseball game almost anywhere. As stated you love the Pirates and blinded by that love

The lease for Three Rivers Stadium also prohibited the Pirates from leaving. That lease is due to expire in two more years. Where is Three Rivers Stadium?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:21 pm 
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This is my final comment to all of this. Bertie mentioned 121 years of tradition, being a fan of this organization has been spectacular, I am proud to be associated with the Pirates. We have a rich history(personally watched the 1979 WS), a blue collar work ethic, a family atmosphere. Those attributes combined for my passion for the game make me what they call a diehard Pirates fan. Call me names, ridicule me for supporting a team year in and year out regardless of the outcome, tell me how terrible my team is from top to bottom(I may agree on some occasions), but at the end of the day, its a Pirate cap that adorns my head, and nothing else. Its always easy to separate passionate baseball fans from the casual observers, and its simple here to see that BH is just a casual observer(as he stated himself), maybe he is part of the "now" generation that believes that things need to happen now, for him. What all of us fans really know deep in our hearts about this team is that we are a few good years away from contending, there needs to be time to rebuild the organization from the draft. Sure, I want to see them succeed now, I sit in front of my TV and sometimes try to "will" them to get a hit, we have all been there. But most of us know the shape of the organization and the destruction that Cam Bonifay and David Littlefield have caused. For the guys that insist that money being spent would have made us winners, I have yet to hear where that money was to be spent and on who. Just look at Jaques Jones in Detroit, he was just sent down, Miguel Cabrera the great hitter he is, is barely a firstbasemen. Barry Zito came to SF with big expectations and an even larger salary, did anyone see that coming? Free agency is unreliable and an unrealistic avenue for building a championship caliber team, it is although a good way to get a final piece, a player to push a team over the top. The Pirates are very far from that scenerio. I said this before and I will say it again, I am GLAD Nutting did not spend money this winter. Save the money for when the time is right, when we need it. Not for the Johnny Estradas of the world. Your blaming of Nutting holds no water and is baseless.

This board is the finest I have been involved in. There is geniune respect, orderly conduct, and most importantly, very intelligent and passionate fans. BH, I don't mind you posting and commenting, but what is it that excites you about spinning us up? Very childish, actually somewhat sad, you seem like an intelligent fellow, but yet you contend that intelligence with every post. Sure we are all frustrated and upset about 15 years of losing, it wasn't always that pretty from 1980 to 1990, how about the 57-104 campaign in 1985, they cycled out of it then and I believe that they can cycle out of it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:49 pm 
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I became a Pirate fan as a young boy and will remain so until I die. It doesn't matter how many years in a row they lose, or how inept their management is, was, or will be.

I always follow and root for the team, I always have hope for the future, and I wear my Pirates gear with pride.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:55 pm 
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Piratefan13

I wear no hat of another team. Sure there is a long proud tradition. How proud will you be when this team is the longest losing team of all sports? The Nutting family has been the major source of money as an investor since 1996. Losing for this long has not been about bad luck and poor choices. The GMs have had their hands tied because of the profit first before winning. The new GM has said the profits are used to pay debt? That is indirectly putting money into your pockets.

I can understand being loyal...but its a two way street. If you can not see that after the ownership said the new park would make the team competitive, and ownerships actions have shown otherwise and the results speak for themself, you're blinded by love.

Sing along to this old Mo Town tune by the Supremes

Love, love, love makes me do foolish things
Sitting on by the phone, a phone that never rings
Hoping to hear you say you love me still
Knowing you never will.

Love, love, love has made a fool of me
Got me doing things, things that shouldn't be
Listening for the sound of your knock on my door
Knowing that sweet sound would be no more.

Funny how precious memories linger on
So long after you’re gone
Oooh, precious memories that all makes me cry
But I keep holding on, oh why should I?

All because love, love, love has made a fool of me
Speak your name softly each night
While holding your picture tight
When you took my heart, you took my soul
And it's far beyond control.

Funny how precious memories linger on
So long, long after you're gone
Oh, precious memories that all makes me cry
But I keep holding on, oh why should I?

All because love, love, love makes me do these things
Love, love, love, love has made a fool of me
Love, love, love makes me do foolish things.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:14 pm 
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are you trying to serenade me BH? :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:22 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
are you trying to serenade me BH? :shock:


Trying to get a little humor going :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates ranked #1(sort of)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:43 pm 
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Bertie wrote:
BBF is not even really an "idiot").

.


Mrs. BBF disagrees.

-BBF-

PS. BBF's coworkers also disagree.

PPS. BBF's friends disagree as well.

PPPS. BBF's parents strongly disagree.

PPPPS. Elmer disagrees too. Thererfore, Mayor Mystery disagrees.

PPPPPS. Googlebot disagrees.


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