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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:52 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Nothing like a trip to the graveyard to dig up the bones of a horse beat to death.


I don't think it's a dead horse, NS.

Willton said he'd judge NH in his sixth year. Here we are. Bucfan said he'd judge NH when he's been in control for five years. Here we are. ZelieMike said the Pirates could be expected to be where the Reds were in 2010 two years later, which means the Pirates would have had to have won the NL Central in 2012. They didn't.

In my view, 2013 is Neal Huntington's final year to prove he can build a winner. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, or at least win more games than they lose, then Neal Huntington, Frank Coonelly, Kyle Stark, Greg Smith, and Larry Broadway should all be fired.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:04 am 
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I agree, they have to break .500 or Huntington goes. In fact he should already be gone.

Having said that, I still believe progress is being made.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:51 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Oh, and if one had to choose between them, is there ANYONE LEFT ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD who would take Neal Huntington over Walt Jocketty as the General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates? I'm lookin' for you, ZelieMike...


What has he done in Cincy to gain your absolute confidence? He inherited Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier and Bruce. Cueto, Bailey, and Arroyo too. That's most of his current roster that makes that team good. He traded away Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion for little return. His drafts (2008 on) have produced only 6 MLB players and he traded three of them to SD for Latos. All he has remaining is Dave Sappelt and Mike Leake. I'm not arguing he's not an OK GM, but I don't see why you felt the need to bring this up?


A couple of reasons.

First, the people defending NH in this thread said they'd judge his work after he was given five full seasons or going into his sixth season. Here we are. It's time to judge the guy's body of work with the Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Club.

Second, Jocketty's Reds are a powerhouse in the division now and for years to come. The players he inherited have blossomed, and players he's acquired -- particularly Aroldis Chapman, Mat Latos, and Ryan Ludwick -- have made a big impact. The great thing about this game is that they keep score, my friend, and the scoreboard says that Walt Jocketty has led the Reds to two division titles in the last three seasons. When should we expect a division title for the Bucs as led by Mr. Neal Huntington?


So you're equating what Jocketty inherited (basically a whole team of young talent) to what NH did?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
So you're equating what Jocketty inherited (basically a whole team of young talent) to what NH did?


Nope. I'm saying Jocketty is a better GM based on overall performance. Neal Huntington is heading into his SIXTH season. It's on him now. He can't use Littlefield as an excuse anymore, particularly when his two best position players (Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker) were drafted by Littlefield, and his best corner outfield prospect (Starling Marte) was signed by Littlefield.

In 2010, when I started this thread, the response was "give Huntington more time." Well, we did. And here we are.

I believe Walt Jocketty has positioned the Reds to be better in 2013 and in the future than Huntington has positioned the Pirates. I want a GM who can get the kind of results Jocketty has gotten over his career with the Cardinals and Reds.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
So you're equating what Jocketty inherited (basically a whole team of young talent) to what NH did?


More evidence that a 'THANKS' button is needed.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:04 pm 
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If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:10 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?


It's not that NH isn't accountable; he is. It's that you're using a bad comparison to 'prove' it.

If NH is a failure as a GM here it has nothing to do with Walt Jocketty or any other GM elsewhere who inherited entirely different situations.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:24 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton said he'd judge NH in his sixth year. Here we are.

I'm sorry, when did I say that?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:27 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?

Who is to say that NH is not being held accountable now? Is firing NH the only way to hold him accountable?

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?

Who is to say that NH is not being held accountable now? Is firing NH the only way to hold him accountable?


How is he being held accountable at all?

And if the Pirates suffer a 21st consecutive losing season in 2013, I expect NH to be fired. What else could they do? Demote him?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Here you go, Willton.

Willton wrote:
But that's the thing: you're NOT judging them by the same standard. Jocketty needed 6 years in order to turn St. Louis into the powerhouse it was in the 2000's. Huntington has only presided over the Pirates for 2.5 years. Do you not see the incongruity of comparing the career of a 14-year veteran to that of a relative neophyte?


Jocketty needed "6 years in order to turn St. Louis into the powerhouse it was in the 2000's." Here we are in Year 6 of the Huntington Regime. Is it powerhouse time?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:19 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?


It's not that NH isn't accountable; he is. It's that you're using a bad comparison to 'prove' it.

If NH is a failure as a GM here it has nothing to do with Walt Jocketty or any other GM elsewhere who inherited entirely different situations.


When did I say that NH's failure had anything to do with Walt Jocketty? I didn't. Rather, I said that Walt Jocketty is a BETTER GM than Huntington. And I think that's pretty much proven.

Sure, they confronted different situations. But the truth is that Jocketty has led two different teams to success as a GM, both in less time than Huntington had (division title in his second year with Cards; division title within five years with Reds).


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:29 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?

Who is to say that NH is not being held accountable now? Is firing NH the only way to hold him accountable?


How is he being held accountable at all?

I don't know. I'm not privy to discussions held within the Pirates front office.

J_C_Steel wrote:
And if the Pirates suffer a 21st consecutive losing season in 2013, I expect NH to be fired. What else could they do? Demote him?

I do too. I would be surprised if he is not fired under such circumstances.

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Last edited by Willton on Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:35 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Here you go, Willton.

Willton wrote:
But that's the thing: you're NOT judging them by the same standard. Jocketty needed 6 years in order to turn St. Louis into the powerhouse it was in the 2000's. Huntington has only presided over the Pirates for 2.5 years. Do you not see the incongruity of comparing the career of a 14-year veteran to that of a relative neophyte?

I fail to read my quote as saying that I would judge anyone by a set time.

Willton wrote:
Jocketty needed "6 years in order to turn St. Louis into the powerhouse it was in the 2000's." Here we are in Year 6 of the Huntington Regime. Is it powerhouse time?

It's time to win, at the very least. And if the Pirates do win in 2013, then I will submit that Huntington will have done a more impressive job turning the Pirates into a winner than Jocketty did turning the Cardinals into a winner.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:41 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
And if the Pirates suffer a 21st consecutive losing season in 2013, I expect NH to be fired. What else could they do? Demote him?

I do too. I would be surprised if he is not fired under such circumstances.


Ah, but would you agree that he would deserve to be fired?


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:42 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
When did I say that NH's failure had anything to do with Walt Jocketty? I didn't. Rather, I said that Walt Jocketty is a BETTER GM than Huntington. And I think that's pretty much proven.

Sure, they confronted different situations. But the truth is that Jocketty has led two different teams to success as a GM, both in less time than Huntington had (division title in his second year with Cards; division title within five years with Reds).


That's why it's 'proven'.

Jocketty is an investment banker who started with $10 M whereas NH only started with $1 M.

It's easier to be better when you start off with more.

That's why the comparison(s) are faulty.

It's like saying Joe Girardi is a better manager than Brad Mills because Girardi won more. No kidding.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:45 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
If NH isn't accountable for the PBC's performance in 2013, when will he finally be accountable? Can people defending NH at least answer that one?


It's not that NH isn't accountable; he is. It's that you're using a bad comparison to 'prove' it.

If NH is a failure as a GM here it has nothing to do with Walt Jocketty or any other GM elsewhere who inherited entirely different situations.


When did I say that NH's failure had anything to do with Walt Jocketty? I didn't. Rather, I said that Walt Jocketty is a BETTER GM than Huntington. And I think that's pretty much proven.

Sure, they confronted different situations. But the truth is that Jocketty has led two different teams to success as a GM, both in less time than Huntington had (division title in his second year with Cards; division title within five years with Reds).

And each time doing so with other people's assets. It's much easier to win a division when the players that are thrust upon you are good, rather than bad.

By the way, that Josh Hamilton trade is looking pretty awful right now.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:46 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
And if the Pirates suffer a 21st consecutive losing season in 2013, I expect NH to be fired. What else could they do? Demote him?

I do too. I would be surprised if he is not fired under such circumstances.


Ah, but would you agree that he would deserve to be fired?

At that point, yes.

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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Willton wrote:
By the way, that Josh Hamilton trade is looking pretty awful right now.


How's the Jason Bay trade looking?

You can keep ragging on Jocketty for living in the "dark ages of baseball"; he'll just keep winning. The Reds are positioned as the NL Central favorites after winning 97 games and the division in 2012. Jocketty brought in Latos last year and it worked wonders. He traded for Shin-Soo Choo this year and the Reds now have a balanced lineup.


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 Post subject: Re: I'd show Huntington the door for this guy...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:28 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton wrote:
By the way, that Josh Hamilton trade is looking pretty awful right now.


How's the Jason Bay trade looking?

Jason Bay is no longer playing like an All-Star. Josh Hamilton is.

J_C_Steel wrote:
You can keep ragging on Jocketty for living in the "dark ages of baseball"; he'll just keep winning. The Reds are positioned as the NL Central favorites after winning 97 games and the division in 2012. Jocketty brought in Latos last year and it worked wonders. He traded for Shin-Soo Choo this year and the Reds now have a balanced lineup.

Jocketty will keep winning with other people's players. Outside of Ryan Ludwick and the reanimated corpse of Scott Rolen, everyone on the 2012 Reds' starting lineup was acquired by Wayne Krivsky. And while he did obtain Matt Latos, the Reds' 2012 rotation was primarily built around Krivsky's players. (That's likely to remain the case unless the experiment of Chapman starting actually returns dividends, which is an optimistic thought.) Jocketty has never had the experience of taking a team bereft of talent and turning it into a winner; he's always had other people's toys to play with.

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