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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:10 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I'm not sure NH took every SP option that was available, but he took some chances (including some ones that worked out) in the offseason. I'm more concerned with during this season. I'm not accusing NH of ruining the team or anything, but I do think he could have been a bit more aggressive.



How can you know he didn't take every SP option that was available? That's the whole problem here Elmer. If you want to criticize NH for not doing something, YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE SOME SUGGESTION OF WHAT HE COULD HAVE DONE. Show me where he lacked aggressiveness. Seriously, show me.

And also, since we seemed to have passed over this point, where exactly does Huntington put all of these pitchers that were available over the waiver wire that no one besides Elmer knows about? Again, I don't recall you asking that we dump any of our guys at AAA, so if that rotation was full, and our big league rotation was full, I'd be interested to hear where they should be pitching (assuming they existed).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:11 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Of course you're not, as it is your position that Huntingdon should have a crystal ball and a magic wand that he uses to convince Walt Jocketty to give us Edinson Volquez for a package of Nyjer Morgan, JVB and Bullington.[\quote]

I said nothing of the sort.

Quote:
No you aren't, you're criticizing Huntingdon for his failure to work miracles.


I don't want miracles. I just don't want a rotation of JVB, Bullington, injured Snell, Injured Gorzo, Maholm and Duke.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:12 pm 
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To tell you the truth Elmer, I think NH had some confidence in the starting 5 that we have. And I am sure that all of us had confidence in 4 of the 5 starters(Matt Morris the lone weakness), at least for them to compete. It sucks because Maholm and Duke have improved, and Dumatrait come out of nowhere, but Gorzo and Snell regressed. How frustrating that may be for the GM. He did get guys, but how many can you really get? There wouldn/t be enough playing time for them all at AAA. We've yet to see how Barthmeier will work out, and by golly we have to get something... anything from Bullington. DL predicted him to be a 3rd starter, damn if he was even wrong on that. DL and numerous others destroyed this team and its going to take NH a few seasons to right the ship(hah another pirate ship reference, 2 in one day).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:13 pm 
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I'm not sure NH took every SP option that was available, but he took some chances (including some ones that worked out) in the offseason. I'm more concerned with during this season. I'm not accusing NH of ruining the team or anything, but I do think he could have been a bit more aggressive.



How can you know he didn't take every SP option that was available? That's the whole problem here Elmer. If you want to criticize NH for not doing something, YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE SOME SUGGESTION OF WHAT HE COULD HAVE DONE. Show me where he lacked aggressiveness. Seriously, show me.

And also, since we seemed to have passed over this point, where exactly does Huntington put all of these pitchers that were available over the waiver wire that no one besides Elmer knows about? Again, I don't recall you asking that we dump any of our guys at AAA, so if that rotation was full, and our big league rotation was full, I'd be interested to hear where they should be pitching (assuming they existed).


You wouldn't be OK with dumping Bullington? And I think you, yourself, advocated moving JVB to the bullpen.

If you find a pitcher worth acquiring, go for it I say. Adjust your current roster accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:15 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Of course you're not, as it is your position that Huntingdon should have a crystal ball and a magic wand that he uses to convince Walt Jocketty to give us Edinson Volquez for a package of Nyjer Morgan, JVB and Bullington.[\quote]

I said nothing of the sort.

Quote:
No you aren't, you're criticizing Huntingdon for his failure to work miracles.


I don't want miracles. I just don't want a rotation of JVB, Bullington, injured Snell, Injured Gorzo, Maholm and Duke.

Who does? Yet you consistently fail to point out any alternatives.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:18 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
To tell you the truth Elmer, I think NH had some confidence in the starting 5 that we have. And I am sure that all of us had confidence in 4 of the 5 starters(Matt Morris the lone weakness), at least for them to compete. It sucks because Maholm and Duke have improved, and Dumatrait come out of nowhere, but Gorzo and Snell regressed. How frustrating that may be for the GM. He did get guys, but how many can you really get? There wouldn/t be enough playing time for them all at AAA. We've yet to see how Barthmeier will work out, and by golly we have to get something... anything from Bullington. DL predicted him to be a 3rd starter, damn if he was even wrong on that. DL and numerous others destroyed this team and its going to take NH a few seasons to right the ship(hah another pirate ship reference, 2 in one day).


I agree with much of what you say, Piratefan13. DL ruined this team. No argument there. NH may very well "right the ship" (though he or any GM will need some $$ from ownership). NH has made some good moves to suggest that he may very well, indeed, do that.

That doesn't mean he's above criticism though. That's my biggest problem with this board. The cheerleading rather than objective observation. I think a true fan praises his team where it deserves it and criticizes it where it deserves it.

Praising everything a team does isn't being a fan; its' being an apologist.

NH has made some good moves but he's not perfect. For example, if he had full confidence in the starting 5 but they are struggling as a whole, isn't that a mistake?

Why am I not allowed to criticize him?


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:26 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
You wouldn't be OK with dumping Bullington? And I think you, yourself, advocated moving JVB to the bullpen.

If you find a pitcher worth acquiring, go for it I say. Adjust your current roster accordingly.


I'll agree with you 100% if you can show that there was a pitcher worth acquiring that we didn't acquire. You've yet to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:28 pm 
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You can criticize all you want but keep in mind that he was given the keys to a Pinto, and you want him to make it a HotRod in a year. Its going to take some time, for me, I am giving him a 1 year grace period unless he trades Bay for Hernandez, Bruback, and Hill then its on like Donky Kong.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:55 pm 
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I hear that Jimmy Anderson is finishing a stint (or calzone?) on the Italian Pizza Circuit.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:31 pm 
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BBF wrote:
I'll agree with you 100% if you can show that there was a pitcher worth acquiring that we didn't acquire. You've yet to do so.


You act like there is some transcript where the actions of each GM, along with the potential moves that were available to him at various times, is documented. There is no such thing, not even close.

NH had reason to believe that Snell and Gorzo would continue to pitch like they did last year. Also he added depth by acquiring Dumatrait and Barthmeier.

If I'm going to single out any one thing, I would fault him most for not getting a backup shortstop.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:35 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
BBF wrote:
I'll agree with you 100% if you can show that there was a pitcher worth acquiring that we didn't acquire. You've yet to do so.


You act like there is some transcript where the actions of each GM, along with the potential moves that were available to him at various times, is documented. There is no such thing, not even close.

NH had reason to believe that Snell and Gorzo would continue to pitch like they did last year. Also he added depth by acquiring Dumatrait and Barthmeier.

If I'm going to single out any one thing, I would fault him most for not getting a backup shortstop.


Um...you can pretty much read the "Transactions" page of any baseball site. It will tell you who is designated for assignment or released. Its not comprehensive, but its a start. And its certainly better than assuming there is a plethora of pitchers just floating around for us to grab and NH is purposefully ignoring them.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:37 pm 
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Hey, here's a thought: Try LaRoche on the mound. He just might turn out to be a better pitcher than he is a hitter. :lol: ;) :lol: ;)

Kidding. I'm kidding.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:00 am 
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Ralphie wrote:
BBF wrote:
I'll agree with you 100% if you can show that there was a pitcher worth acquiring that we didn't acquire. You've yet to do so.


You act like there is some transcript where the actions of each GM, along with the potential moves that were available to him at various times, is documented. There is no such thing, not even close.

NH had reason to believe that Snell and Gorzo would continue to pitch like they did last year. Also he added depth by acquiring Dumatrait and Barthmeier.

If I'm going to single out any one thing, I would fault him most for not getting a backup shortstop.

You're right, he didn't get one backup shortstop. He got two, Gomez and Rivas, in addition to Sanchez, who is already here, Kata, who is in AAA, and Bixler, who was thought to be the heir apparent at shortstop.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:50 pm 
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I'm not sure about Kata, but none of the other guys qualify as an adequate major league shortstop, although Gomez was close.

I guess we had to look at Rivas and Bixler, so they could show what they were not capable of.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:59 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
BBF wrote:
I'll agree with you 100% if you can show that there was a pitcher worth acquiring that we didn't acquire. You've yet to do so.


You act like there is some transcript where the actions of each GM, along with the potential moves that were available to him at various times, is documented. There is no such thing, not even close.

NH had reason to believe that Snell and Gorzo would continue to pitch like they did last year. Also he added depth by acquiring Dumatrait and Barthmeier.

If I'm going to single out any one thing, I would fault him most for not getting a backup shortstop.

You're right, he didn't get one backup shortstop. He got two, Gomez and Rivas, in addition to Sanchez, who is already here, Kata, who is in AAA, and Bixler, who was thought to be the heir apparent at shortstop.


I don't think NH ever viewed Bixler as the heir apparent at shortstop. Littlefield did, but NH not so much. I heard an interview with NH in spring training and he suggested that he viewed Bixler as a potential backup infielder at the major league level.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship taking on water
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:55 pm 
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I don't fault NH too much for the shortstops.

He needed a bench that included middle infielders. So, he grabbed a handful of them hoping one or two would be decent bench players this year. Most of the guys you list are one year Pirates and strickly back-ups.
Gomez cost 1 million but the rest if I'm not mistaken were very inexpensive (minor league contracts?)
Bixler is not the future SS nor is anyone presently on the 40 man roster.

Remember Jack Flash will require much more money in 2010 when FA calls. You guys don't want us to pay for him do you? THINK FUTURE TEAM

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