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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:27 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
That is simply, factually untrue. While he did injure himself in the outfield last year, his career is one of injury, and one of catching. His minor league career was injury-filled due to catching.

His two injuries this year are directly caused by his bad defense. Fractured fingure, and fouls off his face mask.

His injury two years ago, was a hammy popped while catching.

ZM


Are you out of your mind? Foul balls off the face mask happen to every catcher, including gold glovers. And the way our pitchers chase the catcher all over the place this year I'm not sure you can even attribute the finger to bad catching. And please check YOUR facts. Most of his injuries the last 2-3 years happened on the base paths or in the outfield. And I suppose his pulled "hammy" was a result of bad catching technique. Because guys never pull hamstrings any time else.... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:29 pm 
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Doumit has only really had one bad injury and that was the thumb this year...concussions happen to catchers theres not much you can do about taking foul balls off the mask...Doumit is just injury prone anywhere!!!

There was an article in the Post Gazette yesterday saying how the new management wanted him to be an OFer and Chuck Tanner stood his ground to keep him as a catcher...

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:37 pm 
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I quite clearly I thought, referenced his minor league career, as well as his MLB career.

Am I right to read that you are seriously comparing the risk of a hammy pull from a squat position to jump and run, to that from an outfielder running from standing position?

And, yes, the ability to protect oneself is part of any catching repetoire that I've run across, including learning how to recieve the ball so as not break something. As for concusions, as you point out, he will continue to get hit in the head, and thus, continue to collect concusive symtoms, as they are cumulative.

Really, I'm surprised that folks seriously argue that catching carries the same injury risk as an OF or 1B position. And, further that removing Doumit from catching will lessen the chance of injury, and increase the chances of productive time on the field.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:41 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I'm not making stuff up. I'm referring to the hammy he pulled while catching to start the year. When he dove to catch a foul ball. :roll:

That's what got him rolled into positional play.

And, I do not take kindly to being called a liar or a makeup artist.

You can however, refer to my failing memory or advanced adult on-set ADD, if you note it.

ZM

He was moved to the outfield because of Tracy's irrational love for Paulino's game calling, not because of injuries.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:46 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
That is simply, factually untrue. While he did injure himself in the outfield last year, his career is one of injury, and one of catching. His minor league career was injury-filled due to catching.

His two injuries this year are directly caused by his bad defense. Fractured fingure, and fouls off his face mask.

His injury two years ago, was a hammy popped while catching.

ZM

I can tell that you are no catcher. There is no defensive skill that prevents you from being struck by fould tips. It is impossible to move your glove fast enough to catch a ball after it changes trajectory at 90mph a foot or two in front of you.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:16 pm 
It's not an experiment. Doumit is a below average but acceptable defensive catcher with a very above average catcher's bat.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:35 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
I can tell that you are no catcher. There is no defensive skill that prevents you from being struck by fould tips. It is impossible to move your glove fast enough to catch a ball after it changes trajectory at 90mph a foot or two in front of you.


You are right, I am not, and have never claimed to be. My forte was making errors at 3b, and striking out a lot.

I ceded the point about catching foul balls (are all foul tip K's then, an accident?), but you have not addressed the pressing point.

He is getting concussed from balls in the mask, they are cumulative. How much time on the DL offsets the "good bat for a catcher" attitude. Especially when his bat is good for any position.

And, did I mention he played RF adeptly last year?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:46 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Am I right to read that you are seriously comparing the risk of a hammy pull from a squat position to jump and run, to that from an outfielder running from standing position?

Yes, because the number of times a catcher must go from a squat position to a running position is not nearly as high as the number of times an outfielder must go from a standing position to a running position. Further, catchers rarely sprint to catch a fly ball, while outfielders do it far more often, and sprinting enhances the risk of injuring one's hamstring.

Do tell me, how often do catchers injure their hamstrings while catching? And how often do outfielders injure their hamstrings while playing the outfield?

ZelieMike wrote:
And, yes, the ability to protect oneself is part of any catching repetoire that I've run across, including learning how to recieve the ball so as not break something. As for concusions, as you point out, he will continue to get hit in the head, and thus, continue to collect concusive symtoms, as they are cumulative.

But one's likelihood to suffer a concussion is not affected at all by a player's propensity to get injured. The propensity to suffer a concussion is a characteristic of the position, not of the player. That's the point: whoever the Pirates place at catcher is just as likely to suffer a concussion as Doumit is.

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Really, I'm surprised that folks seriously argue that catching carries the same injury risk as an OF or 1B position. And, further that removing Doumit from catching will lessen the chance of injury, and increase the chances of productive time on the field.

ZM

No one is saying that catcher carries the same injury risk as OF or 1B. What we're saying is that Doumit's propensity to get injured has nothing to do with him being a catcher. Doumit may be put in harm's way as a catcher, but so would anyone who plays that position. What has made Doumit injury prone is mainly his hamstrings, and those will not be adversely affected by him playing catcher.

And yes, moving Doumit to a different position, like 1B or RF, may lessen the chances of him getting injured (although it increases the chances of a hammy pull if he goes to the OF). But moving Doumit to the OF also lessens the chances that the Pirates will win games, as he provides tremendous offensive value at a position where most teams play bad hitters. While I'm sensitive to keeping Doumit healthy, I'd like to see the Pirates win more often, and moving Doumit to a different position undercuts that interest.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:39 pm 
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Willton wrote:
No one is saying that catcher carries the same injury risk as OF or 1B. What we're saying is that Doumit's propensity to get injured has nothing to do with him being a catcher. Doumit may be put in harm's way as a catcher, but so would anyone who plays that position. What has made Doumit injury prone is mainly his hamstrings, and those will not be adversely affected by him playing catcher...


That is bs on its face. Tell me, how often was Paulino on the IR through his career? Kendall? Spanky? Sanguillen? Ott? Or, any number of catchers.

His injuries include broken hands due to catching, or lack thereof. His risk to concussion is much greater than any other catcher, because he's had them and they haven't.

He simply cannot stay healthy behind the plate at a rate that offsets his defensive liablilities and keeps his bat in the game.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:09 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
I can tell that you are no catcher. There is no defensive skill that prevents you from being struck by fould tips. It is impossible to move your glove fast enough to catch a ball after it changes trajectory at 90mph a foot or two in front of you.


You are right, I am not, and have never claimed to be. My forte was making errors at 3b, and striking out a lot.

I ceded the point about catching foul balls (are all foul tip K's then, an accident?), but you have not addressed the pressing point.

He is getting concussed from balls in the mask, they are cumulative. How much time on the DL offsets the "good bat for a catcher" attitude. Especially when his bat is good for any position.

And, did I mention he played RF adeptly last year?

ZM

If you're admitting that your assertion that he was injured because of his poor defense, okay.

Yes, all foul tip K's are primarily accidental. One catcher might have better hands than another, and thus be able to hold on to more foul tips, but whether or not a foul tip hits his glove in the first place is something that no catcher has any control over. It's simply impossible for any human being to react that quickly.

Doumit has shown that he's going to get hurt a lot no matter where he plays, so I see no point in moving him until the Pirates come up with a better catcher.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:50 am 
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Us finding another good catcher isnt going to happen anytime soon unless it's going to come through a position change or through a trade cause we don't have any other good catchers even throughout our minors.


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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Willton wrote:
But one's likelihood to suffer a concussion is not affected at all by a player's propensity to get injured. The propensity to suffer a concussion is a characteristic of the position, not of the player. That's the point: whoever the Pirates place at catcher is just as likely to suffer a concussion as Doumit is.


From what I understand, this is wrong but would welcome the resident physician's opinion. It is my understanding that concussions are cumulative. A catcher (or running back (Merrill Hoge), quarterback (Trent Green)) with a previous history of concusssion is more likely to suffer a repeat injury and spend more time away from the game than a catcher who has not suffered a similar injury. Would Raul Chavez suffer concussive symptoms similar to Doumit's under the same circumstances? Not likely. Whether or not you believe that Doumit's defensive skills are good, bad, adequate or Gold Glove worthy should not blind you to the fact that Doumit's history of concussive injury is a concern.

Personally, I don't see a clear cut answer here. His bat is such that it needs to be in the lineup. I don't think that anyone here has questioned that fact. I think that the debate involves where he could be playing that best helps the Bucs.

While I have seen Doumit's catching improve markedly this year, I continue to see him as a defensive liability. I also see him as a huge injury risk behind the plate. If he's on the bench, his hitting prowess is moot. His hitting prowess is also somewhat countered by his deficiencies behind the plate. Thus, I see ZM raising valid points.

Willton/Econo also raises a valid point. IF you can keep Doumit in the lineup and get that type of hitting production out of him from the catching position, that could be a huge bonus. I essentially made the same argument years ago about Castillo. It looked as though he might hit 20-25 HRs from the 2B spot which would have been a huge bonus.

The ultimate question is a fair one: given the need to have Doumit's bat in this line-up as close to 100% as possible, where does he play. Is it better for the Bucs to have Doumit behind the plate for - say - 100 games as a catcher with Nady in RF or is it better for the Bucs to have Doumit in RF for 152 games with some other catcher behind the plate? In the former, you'll likely score more runs in those 100 games but you will likely give up more runs. In the latter, you'll score less but give up less as well.

Personally, I don't think that there is an easy answer. And, from what it appears to me, baseball people far more knowledgeable about the game than me differ in their opinions as well.

And - just to get an opinion on the table - here would be my preference. Trade Nady for prospects. Move Doumit to RF. Bring Paulino back from the minors. Give him another (and last) chance to show that he can be a player at the highest level. Have Chavez as the back-up catcher. Drop Rivas. If Paulino is the bum that most think he is (2007/2008 version), let him go after the season or send him back to AAA and get a catcher in the offseason via free agency. If he reverts to the 2006 Ronnie (decent offense for a catcher and good defense), then you have a pretty good asset in the lineup and lower your risk that Doumit will injure himself.

Just my $.02.

And, BTW, anyone who thinks that Doumit's broken thumb has nothing to do with his defensive skills is, IMO, wrong. How quickly a catcher reacts to bad pitches is very much a function of defensive skills. I'm not saying it had everything to do with his injury; I'm saying that it certainly played a role.

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 Post subject: Re: So, how long do we stay with this experiment?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:24 pm 
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No.9 - as usual you make many points in the discussion that are valid. I would agree with your analysis of the deal and the fact that there is no clear cut easy decision. I just don't want Paulino back and Chevez can't hit his weight.
Nady will probably go soon but should Doumit go to RF is the question?

Doumit must stay -- he brings aggressiveness that is needed and his emotion is also good for the entire team, his bat speaks for itself.

his finger injury may have been because of his slowness in reacting but I'm not so sure anyone could have reacted quicker.

Maybe first base is the appropriate position for him, but we still need a catcher and have a good defensive one with no stick. Which is better?

As I said before, that why Russell makes the big bucks.

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