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 Post subject: LaRoche (Sigh)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:40 pm 
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I edited the title of this thread I began, because the word I used after LaRoche describing LaRoche was not a very nice word to use for anyone. I instead am using the word "sigh". That will be the word I will choose to use when I am extremely frustrated with a Pirate player from now on.

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Last edited by bassoondirector on Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:42 pm 
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My thoughts exactly.

He absolutely cannot hit even a mediocre fastball. This bunk about hitting in tough luck ignores what Laroche does against any 90 mph or better fastball - foul off, swing and miss, pop-up, or weak grounder. He cannot get the bat around to square up the fastball. His well-struck balls have come off breaking pitches the past 3 weeks.

And this just in - Laroche cannot hit a breaking pitch . . .


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Bullish:Pirates ownership :: Bucfan:Adam Laroche


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:48 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Bullish:Pirates ownership :: Bucfan:Adam Laroche


:D :lol:

But hey, I am much, much funnier.


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:50 pm 
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I'm glad you took it with the humor that was intended...I was afraid that might come off wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:09 pm 
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BBF wrote:
I'm glad you took it with the humor that was intended...I was afraid that might come off wrong.


I am just pained to see the April Laroche playing in June. Seriously, is he ever going to hit another XBH?


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:35 am 
Bucfan wrote:
BBF wrote:
I'm glad you took it with the humor that was intended...I was afraid that might come off wrong.


I am just pained to see the April Laroche playing in June. Seriously, is he ever going to hit another XBH?


Is anyone even still defending LaRoche. The "LaRoche sucks" statement is basically fact. It's hard to even find an argument against it.


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
BBF wrote:
I'm glad you took it with the humor that was intended...I was afraid that might come off wrong.


I am just pained to see the April Laroche playing in June. Seriously, is he ever going to hit another XBH?


Is anyone even still defending LaRoche. The "LaRoche sucks" statement is basically fact. It's hard to even find an argument against it.

If you mean "LaRoche sucks right now", you're right, he isn't hitting right now. If you mean LaRoche sucks, you're way off base.

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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:37 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
If you mean "LaRoche sucks right now", you're right, he isn't hitting right now. If you mean LaRoche sucks, you're way off base.


No, he's displaying daily that this is no slump. It's almost mid-June. If you're not hitting by mid-June, you shouldn't be in the lineup every day. What happened to the players on this team being held accountable?


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:30 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
If you mean "LaRoche sucks right now", you're right, he isn't hitting right now. If you mean LaRoche sucks, you're way off base.


No, he's displaying daily that this is no slump. It's almost mid-June. If you're not hitting by mid-June, you shouldn't be in the lineup every day. What happened to the players on this team being held accountable?

You're skipping over the fact that he hit well in May, and you're also ignoring his established level of production. He'll end the season with an OPS in the 800s, just like he always does.

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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:10 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
He'll end the season with an OPS in the 800s, just like he always does.


Laroche finished last year with an OPS of .803. Below average for a first baseman.

Last year, after the game on June 6, he had an OPS of .708.

This year, before today's game, he has an OPS of .647 - 61 points lower than his OPS of a year ago, when he barely squeeked over the .800 barrier.

He has a long way to go to reach a below-average OPS. It is unlikely that he will end the year above .800.

So, just saying that he will wind up at .800 or above ignores where he is now as compared to past years, and completely ignores the fact that for the past ten days, he has been doing a Nyjer Morgan impersonation.*

* No XBH since May 27 - from the first baseman, not a fleet-footed center fielder.


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:35 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
He'll end the season with an OPS in the 800s, just like he always does.


Laroche finished last year with an OPS of .803. Below average for a first baseman.

Last year, after the game on June 6, he had an OPS of .708.

This year, before today's game, he has an OPS of .647 - 61 points lower than his OPS of a year ago, when he barely squeeked over the .800 barrier.

He has a long way to go to reach a below-average OPS. It is unlikely that he will end the year above .800.

Care to put your money where your mouth is?

Quote:
So, just saying that he will wind up at .800 or above ignores where he is now as compared to past years, and completely ignores the fact that for the past ten days, he has been doing a Nyjer Morgan impersonation.*

* No XBH since May 27 - from the first baseman, not a fleet-footed center fielder.

So are you saying that the best way to predict future production from a hitter is by looking at his performance over the last 10 days?

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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:51 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
If you mean "LaRoche sucks right now", you're right, he isn't hitting right now. If you mean LaRoche sucks, you're way off base.


No, he's displaying daily that this is no slump. It's almost mid-June. If you're not hitting by mid-June, you shouldn't be in the lineup every day. What happened to the players on this team being held accountable?

You're skipping over the fact that he hit well in May, and you're also ignoring his established level of production. He'll end the season with an OPS in the 800s, just like he always does.


Max Carey also has an established level of production. Should the Pirates sign his corpse?

Point being, who how good LaRoche used to hit? He's not hitting right now and should not be a starter.


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Yes he hit well in May (since God knows you would bring that up in your response to this post if I left it out) but LaRoche has not hit well all year. I don't know why you keep saying people are "comparing him to the last week" or "judging off of 10 days". He was not not striking out and being productive prior to recently hence why people are jumping on him all of a sudden. It has been the same all year. THAT is the reason that people don't see it the same way as you do. You seem confident that he will be becoming more productive, and for the Pirates sake, I obviously hope you're right. But most people including myself are fed up with LaRoche. So what if he catches fire in a month or so. Is it really acceptable to sacrifice 50 % of the season for, he even says it himself "starting slow?" Right now, hence I said RIGHT NOW, as in, this season, as in the 2008 Pirates, not dwelling on the past because I would like to see this team improve right now, I don't see LaRoche being any better than Randall Simon, Sean Casey, or Daryle Ward.

You criticizing Sanchez as much for his play right now is no different than people criticizing LaRoche for the same. Both have played well in the past. And no, I'm not hear to argue what classified "played well" and compare their numbers in the past, but in virtue it really is the same.

You seem confident enough about LaRoche, and that's fine. But don't expect people not to be so thrilled when in June he has consistently been batting around .215, just because of what he's done on the past.


Last edited by TheShark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:57 pm 
TheShark wrote:
So what if he catches fire in a month or so. Is it really acceptable to sacrifice 50 % of the season for, he even says it himself "starting slow?"


Exactly, Shark. Sisy Logic is that if he hits. 100 with a .200 OPS for 5.5 monhts, it's OK so long as he hits 10 home runs and hits .400 September 20-30.

He has played himself out of the starting lineup.


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:06 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Max Carey also has an established level of production. Should the Pirates sign his corpse?

Point being, who how good LaRoche used to hit? He's not hitting right now and should not be a starter.

Elmer, you're argument would hold a lot more water if I could read all your posts calling for Freddy Sanchez to be benched, since Sanchez is hitting even worse than LaRoche this year.

Here's a few questions for you. Which Pirates are going to hit home runs tomorrow? Who will have the most hits in tomorrow's game? Who will drive in runs, and how many? More to the point, what will Adam LaRoche do at the plate tomorrow?

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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:15 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Max Carey also has an established level of production. Should the Pirates sign his corpse?

Point being, who how good LaRoche used to hit? He's not hitting right now and should not be a starter.

Elmer, you're argument would hold a lot more water if I could read all your posts calling for Freddy Sanchez to be benched, since Sanchez is hitting even worse than LaRoche this year.

Here's a few questions for you. Which Pirates are going to hit home runs tomorrow? Who will have the most hits in tomorrow's game? Who will drive in runs, and how many? More to the point, what will Adam LaRoche do at the plate tomorrow?


There's no way to know what LaRoche will do at the plate tomorrow just as there's know way to know what Michaels will do. But, judging by their RECENT history, Michaels is more likely to hit than LaRoche, so why not play him?

Oh, and I'd like to see Freddy and LaRoche benched while they struggle. But this is a post about LaRoche, not Freddy.

But what is it with you and this inferred obligation for anyone who criticizes LaRoche must also criticize Freddy? If I criticize Gorzo, do I also HAVE to criticize Snell in the same post? Where are these rules?

THE POST WAS ABOUT LAROCHE ... not everyone who sucks.


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:19 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:

Here's a few questions for you. Which Pirates are going to hit home runs tomorrow? Who will have the most hits in tomorrow's game? Who will drive in runs, and how many? More to the point, what will Adam LaRoche do at the plate tomorrow?


If TheShark was a betting.guessing man ...

1. My candidates are Nate McLouth and Jason Bay. Each have 7 more HRs than LaRoche on the season.

2. My candidates are: Xaiver Nady (20 more than LaRoche on the season) and Nate McLouth (18 more than LaRoche on the season).

3. While I hope I'm dead wrong, I'll say 0-4 with a strike out and three ground outs.


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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:34 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
Yes he hit well in May (since God knows you would bring that up in your response to this post if I left it out) but LaRoche has not hit well all year. I don't know why you keep saying people are "comparing him to the last week" or "judging off of 10 days".

I keep saying it because that's what a lot of people are doing.

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He was not not striking out and being productive prior to recently hence why people are jumping on him all of a sudden. It has been the same all year.

Baloney. He hit well in May, and you admitted that right at the top of your post. Basically he's had roughly 6 very bad weeks and 4 decent weeks.

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THAT is the reason that people don't see it the same way as you do. You seem confident that he will be becoming more productive, and for the Pirates sake, I obviously hope you're right. But most people including myself are fed up with LaRoche. So what if he catches fire in a month or so. Is it really acceptable to sacrifice 50 % of the season for, he even says it himself "starting slow?" Right now, hence I said RIGHT NOW, as in, this season, as in the 2008 Pirates, not dwelling on the past because I would like to see this team improve right now, I don't see LaRoche being any better than Randall Simon, Sean Casey, or Daryle Ward.

So let me ask you, if next week LaRoche hits 6 homers, bats .400, and drives in boatloads of runs, will you be saying that he is better than Willie Stargell? Of course not, and it is equally ridiculous to be comparing him to Simon, Casey and Ward right now.

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You criticizing Sanchez as much for his play right now is no different than people criticizing LaRoche for the same.

It's similar, but not exactly the same. I'm not calling for Sanchez to be benched. Do you notice who the people are that argue the most vigorously in support of Sanchez? The very same people who are burying LaRoche. Don't you notice anything wrong with that picture? And I'm not calling for the Pirates to bench Sanchez and play Rivas, which would be about the same as arguing that LaRoche should be benched for Michaels. I just want to see him lower in the batting order until he gets himself back to normal, just as I was for dropping LaRoche in the order earlier this season. Anyone who prefers Michaels to LaRoche should also prefer Rivas to Sanchez using their own logic. I've got news for all of you: it is more likely that Freddy Sanchez is washed up as a ML hitter than it is that LaRoche is washed up. He's two years older. I don't happen to believe that either of them is washed up.

Quote:
Both have played well in the past. And no, I'm not hear to argue what classified "played well" and compare their numbers in the past, but in virtue it really is the same.

You seem confident enough about LaRoche, and that's fine. But don't expect people not to be so thrilled when in June he has consistently been batting around .215, just because of what he's done on the past.

Of course I'm confident that LaRoche will be fine. I think Sanchez will be fine as well, for the same reason. If anyone is thrilled they'd be insane. I'm not particularly thrilled myself. But I do think it's right to expect consistency, and anyone who is bitching about LaRoche but not bitching about Sanchez is basing his opinion on something other than actual performance on the field. Care to speculate on the reason? I have my theory, but I'd prefer to hear others first.

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 Post subject: Re: LaRoche Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:37 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Max Carey also has an established level of production. Should the Pirates sign his corpse?

Point being, who how good LaRoche used to hit? He's not hitting right now and should not be a starter.

Elmer, you're argument would hold a lot more water if I could read all your posts calling for Freddy Sanchez to be benched, since Sanchez is hitting even worse than LaRoche this year.

Here's a few questions for you. Which Pirates are going to hit home runs tomorrow? Who will have the most hits in tomorrow's game? Who will drive in runs, and how many? More to the point, what will Adam LaRoche do at the plate tomorrow?


There's no way to know what LaRoche will do at the plate tomorrow just as there's know way to know what Michaels will do. But, judging by their RECENT history, Michaels is more likely to hit than LaRoche, so why not play him?

Because predicting future production on recent history instead on established production levels doesn't work.

Quote:
Oh, and I'd like to see Freddy and LaRoche benched while they struggle. But this is a post about LaRoche, not Freddy.

Congratulations. You're wrong, but at least you're consistent about it.

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