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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:51 pm 
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batterup wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Look, it's time to believe. Cards have a couple very young SP who may or may not continue to sizzle as the season wears on. If you check the standings, you'll find we have a winning % of .615. No one, even the cards, has a better record.
Maybe on paper we're the 4th best in the central and they're first or second. But as is often stated-- there is a reason to play the games.

It will be what it will be. But consider the clubhouse in Pittsburgh and speculate their record if their attitude is similar to some of you.


I don't get why you keep saying we are the fourth best team in the central... All I said was the cards are stacked but we have a good team and have a better than great shot for October. Stop putting words in my mouth, never did I say we are the fourth best team in the division, that's just dumb. My goodness, people are allowed to have opinions that are different then yours


And for what it's worth the cardinals have the same record as us, we now don't have the singular best record in the MLB anymore, we have company, hopefully we can retake the best mark soon.


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:01 pm 
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batterup wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Look, it's time to believe. Cards have a couple very young SP who may or may not continue to sizzle as the season wears on. If you check the standings, you'll find we have a winning % of .615. No one, even the cards, has a better record.
Maybe on paper we're the 4th best in the central and they're first or second. But as is often stated-- there is a reason to play the games.

It will be what it will be. But consider the clubhouse in Pittsburgh and speculate their record if their attitude is similar to some of you.


I don't get why you keep saying we are the fourth best team in the central... All I said was the cards are stacked but we have a good team and have a better than great shot for October. Stop putting words in my mouth, never did I say we are the fourth best team in the division, that's just dumb. My goodness, people are allowed to have opinions that are different then yours

Don't wish to be argumentative but... never credited you with statement about us being 4th best. We were seen by national opinion to be there-- weaker then those other three. The other opinion was that the Reds were the superior team in the division. I did not say you claimed that -- just that that was the prevailing opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:29 pm 
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JC -
You can cite any statistic you want in what appears to be an indefatigable effort to promote the "true" value of Jordy Mercer. I understand the underlying concept of WAR and that it is what many people cite as "true" value. I don't however, just like any other statistic, buy the value of WAR hook, line and sinker. Just as I would never cite to BA, RBIs, OBP or SLG as being a "definitive" of a particular player's value, I wouldn't cite WAR. Indeed, given the inherently subjective components embedded into the WAR metric (not to mention the numerous WAR calculations from various sources), I'm not going to hold it out as the "definitive" metric.

Put a different way, the notion that any single event, defensively or offensively, earns some fraction of a "win" is a concept that I don't buy - particularly when that particular event appears to have the same "positional value" across baseball as a league.

At this rate, I'm getting to watch about 75-80% of Pirate games live or on DVR. I look at season stat lines but, to be blunt, the stats that interest me most are recent trends. Who is hot? Who is cold? Who matches up against whom? What is the likely run environment of a particular game?

Is Mercer a better stick than Barmes? Without question. There is no doubt.
Do I expect Mercer to continue at the pace he set before this last week or so? Nope.
Do I expect Mercer to continue at the pace he has set for the season? Nope. Opponents are building a book on him and I see some trends as to how he is now getting pitched.
Even if he is does not produce as he has up to this date, would he be better than Barmes at the plate? Probably.
Has Mercer been better than advertised in the field? Yes, for the most part.
Has Mercer been spectacular in the field? No. (Bucs don't need him to be spectacular)
Has Mercer been acceptable in the field? Yes, for the most part.
Do I expect him to continue being "better than advertised?" I'm going to be curious to see if he takes any offensive woes to the field with him. As of now, that is going to be a focus of mine. How does he handle offensive adversity?

No matter what WAR may attempt to tell me about the two players, I'm going to hold to the notion that Mercer's bat will be better than Barmes and Barmes' glove will be better than Mercer's. How that plays for stretches of time and for the final 80+ games is going to be interesting but it will not be much of a concern to me. I'm primarily going to be interested in how this team is going to generate runs on a consistent basis to assist the superior pitching that it is getting. And . . . I will be far more interested in what we see out of Walker, Marte, Jones, Tabata and Snider at the plate. Anything that Mercer can add from the 8 hole will be welcomed but it will not, in my opinion, make much of a difference in the big scheme of the Pirates' year. That responsibility falls on the shoulders of the guys hitting at 1, 4, 6 and 7.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:29 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
In their first meeting this year (not that long ago), the Marlins took 2 of 3 from the Cardinals. S&%t happens.

Its a long season. There will be highs and lows. Minimize the lows (i.e. don't get swept) and try to maximize the highs.

I'm as frustrated as the next Pirates' fan that they just lost two of three to the lowly Cubs. But . . . I'm pretty sure that the Cubs had won six of their last nine series. They've been playing better baseball.

Liriano pitched well and received some offense.
Morton was mediocre and received no offensive support.
Burnett pitched well and received no offensive support and a key error on an easy play cost a run.

People can bitch and moan all they want about Inge being in the lineup yesterday but the loss can't be hanged on him. Jones' error in the third was atrocious. Martin's errant throw in the 11th played a key role in the loss. Alvarez looking at strike 3 with a runner on third and one out (no runs scored in that inning after his AB) and Mercer's inability to drive in a run with runners on second and third and one out were hugely blown opportunities to put key runs on the board.

On Saturday, Marte was on third base with one out and McCutchen at bat. Stranded. 6 baserunners in 9 innings.

I'll go back to what I wrote - ad nauseum - when a good number of KBs were being burned up on this Board with people clamoring for Jordy Mercer to be playing shortstop. This team will not rise/fall with whether Barmes or Mercer is playing SS. It will depend greatly upon whether Marte hits, Walker hits and whether the 1B/RF platoons can be productive offensively. And . . . as of now . . . Walker is in a funk, Snider can't hit the broad side of a barn and Jones/Sanchez are slumping. Cutch and Alvarez can't carry this team alone. Martin continues to get on base with regularity but they need for people who are paid to hit the ball to start hitting the ball.



All people were saying was that Mercer is a better option than Barmes at short and he should be playing. Did anyone pencil the Bucs in for the World Series after that move and I missed it?

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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:35 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Foe goodness sake, you probably agreed that we were 4th best in the central. .



That's pretty damn close to attributing batterup with that opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:38 pm 
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No. 9, I'm with you in that I don't take WAR as gospel and of course you may be correct about other things being important, but, why should the (let's assume) fact that Mercer over Barmes will not have the most impact on the Bucs' season prevent you from making that move? Why should that matter at all in your decision-making? Or am I misinterpreting you?

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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:02 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:10 pm 
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Mercer's splits against LHP have been very good and he's been hitting 2nd in the lineup against them quite a bit.

I don't just rely on WAR for my argument, either, No. 9. I rely on OBP, OPS, walk rate, routine plays made, and, yes, the eye test. Barmes has slipped defensively this year and his glove isn't what it was in 2012. If it was, your argument would be better. But in 2013 Barmes has only been slightly above average at shortstop and absolutely useless at the plate. Upgrading from that has the potential to help the Pirates as much as any other better performance all over the diamond. An extra hit or walk from Mercer is as important to the Pirates as an extra hit or walk from a guy playing 1B, RF, LF, or anywhere else.


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:17 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
No. 9, I'm with you in that I don't take WAR as gospel and of course you may be correct about other things being important, but, why should the (let's assume) fact that Mercer over Barmes will not have the most impact on the Bucs' season prevent you from making that move? Why should that matter at all in your decision-making? Or am I misinterpreting you?


Because of . . . and this is my opinion only . . . the amount of time and KBs devoted to the "Free Jordy Mercer" crowd is baffling to me. If you start a list of what causes me to bite my nails (I don't have hair to pull out), the Barmes v. Mercer debate is way down on that list. WAY down on that list. I envision any benefit provided by Mercer to be incremental at best.

If it was Barmes v. Manny Machado, I'll join the chorus. Hell, if it was Barmes v. Juan Seguaro, I'd join the chorus. Its not. Its Jordy Mercer.

I was indifferent at the time that he was promoted to starter and still am. I just don't think that it is going to make much of an overall difference.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:58 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Foe goodness sake, you probably agreed that we were 4th best in the central. .



That's pretty damn close to attributing batterup with that opinion.


Thank you sir, that's how I took it


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:43 pm 
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batterup wrote:
For what it's worh this is how I see it, the cardinals have the obvious upper hand in offense, bench, starting pitching and coaching, we have them beat in bullpen arms and speed, defense is a toss up. Even though we have played them well this year I see them winning the division, it is between us the reds and the nats for the final two playoff spots.

The cardinals are built with 10 solid position players and of those 10, Beltran, Holiday, Craig and Molina are the superstars with Carpenter being on the verge of being another 200 hit guy on that team along with John Jay, David Freese and budding star Matt Adams to go along with that nasty rotation I think they are going to run away with baseballs best record.

We need to beat the teams we are now better then, and avoid extended periods of bad baseball, easier said then done but we can do it, it's obvious we are built better now than any time over the last two years and this is a deeper team, our bench needs to improve, Sanchez and Pressley need to be up and Inge, Snider and Mckennry need to go, I know Sanchez needs to keep playing in AAA but Martin needs some rest and Mckennry can't hit or field and we should groom our future catcher now with Martin here.

Great idea, let's bring up Sanchez so that he can rot on the bench watching Martin.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:57 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
batterup wrote:
For what it's worh this is how I see it, the cardinals have the obvious upper hand in offense, bench, starting pitching and coaching, we have them beat in bullpen arms and speed, defense is a toss up. Even though we have played them well this year I see them winning the division, it is between us the reds and the nats for the final two playoff spots.

The cardinals are built with 10 solid position players and of those 10, Beltran, Holiday, Craig and Molina are the superstars with Carpenter being on the verge of being another 200 hit guy on that team along with John Jay, David Freese and budding star Matt Adams to go along with that nasty rotation I think they are going to run away with baseballs best record.

We need to beat the teams we are now better then, and avoid extended periods of bad baseball, easier said then done but we can do it, it's obvious we are built better now than any time over the last two years and this is a deeper team, our bench needs to improve, Sanchez and Pressley need to be up and Inge, Snider and Mckennry need to go, I know Sanchez needs to keep playing in AAA but Martin needs some rest and Mckennry can't hit or field and we should groom our future catcher now with Martin here.

Great idea, let's bring up Sanchez so that he can rot on the bench watching Martin.


Hey thanks,
It's not like he would be an upgrade over Mckennry or learn anything from Martin. Guess we can roll out Mckennry 15 more times this year and basically tell the opposition to get in scoring position. Guarantee we lose at least 4 games the rest if the year bc Martin needs rest and we have nothing to replace him.


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:03 pm 
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batterup wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Foe goodness sake, you probably agreed that we were 4th best in the central. .



That's pretty damn close to attributing batterup with that opinion.


Thank you sir, that's how I took it

Well you absolutely took it wrong!

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:20 pm 
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No big deal I'm not losing sleep over it


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:48 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
Because of . . . and this is my opinion only . . . the amount of time and KBs devoted to the "Free Jordy Mercer" crowd is baffling to me. If you start a list of what causes me to bite my nails (I don't have hair to pull out), the Barmes v. Mercer debate is way down on that list. WAY down on that list. I envision any benefit provided by Mercer to be incremental at best.

If it was Barmes v. Manny Machado, I'll join the chorus. Hell, if it was Barmes v. Juan Seguaro, I'd join the chorus. Its not. Its Jordy Mercer.

I was indifferent at the time that he was promoted to starter and still am. I just don't think that it is going to make much of an overall difference.

Well, you are spilling a lot of digital ink professing how perplexed you are that anyone cares. But hey, that's what the interwebs are for, aren't they?

I fully agree with you that the performance of Walker, Pedro, Marte and Cutch will mean more to the team over the long run. But given that Walker is in something of a slump, Marte has cooled off, Alvarez has holes in his game and McCutchen, while having a fine season, is not having the career-type year he had last season. Add to that Snider's cooling off of a decent start, Tabata is just now coming back from injury and McHenry seems to be worse at the plate than last year, AND the unlikelihood that the Pirates will do anything major in the transfer market this month, then if there is a low-priced, already-on-the-payroll option to improve upon Barmes, we should take it. You watch more games than I do, so you'll have a much better idea of how Mercer passes the eye-test defensively, but for now, Barmes and Mercer have the same fielding percentage, and to go old school defining range as assists + putouts per 9 innings, Mercer's got better range.

Even despite Mercer's rather anemic July thus far, he has gotten on base 6 times in 6 games. I'll take improvement where I can find it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:47 pm 
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val wrote:
... AND the unlikelihood that the Pirates will do anything major in the transfer market this month...


Transfer market? C'mon val, its baseball... Trade Deadline! :lol:

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:08 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
val wrote:
... AND the unlikelihood that the Pirates will do anything major in the transfer market this month...


Transfer market? C'mon val, its baseball... Trade Deadline! :lol:

ZM

:oops:


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 Post subject: Re: The Cardinals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:29 pm 
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batterup wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
batterup wrote:
For what it's worh this is how I see it, the cardinals have the obvious upper hand in offense, bench, starting pitching and coaching, we have them beat in bullpen arms and speed, defense is a toss up. Even though we have played them well this year I see them winning the division, it is between us the reds and the nats for the final two playoff spots.

The cardinals are built with 10 solid position players and of those 10, Beltran, Holiday, Craig and Molina are the superstars with Carpenter being on the verge of being another 200 hit guy on that team along with John Jay, David Freese and budding star Matt Adams to go along with that nasty rotation I think they are going to run away with baseballs best record.

We need to beat the teams we are now better then, and avoid extended periods of bad baseball, easier said then done but we can do it, it's obvious we are built better now than any time over the last two years and this is a deeper team, our bench needs to improve, Sanchez and Pressley need to be up and Inge, Snider and Mckennry need to go, I know Sanchez needs to keep playing in AAA but Martin needs some rest and Mckennry can't hit or field and we should groom our future catcher now with Martin here.

Great idea, let's bring up Sanchez so that he can rot on the bench watching Martin.


Hey thanks,
It's not like he would be an upgrade over Mckennry or learn anything from Martin. Guess we can roll out Mckennry 15 more times this year and basically tell the opposition to get in scoring position. Guarantee we lose at least 4 games the rest if the year bc Martin needs rest and we have nothing to replace him.

The Pirates have a better winning percentage in McKenry starts than they do in Martin starts.

Replacing McKenry is far down on the list of ways to improve the Pirates, and I am totally against having the guy who will be the starting catcher in 2015 rot on the bench this year just to achieve an improvement that will be marginal at best. Sanchez's 13 errors this year has me doubting that he'd be as good as McKenry, anyway.

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