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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:54 pm 
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I'm fine with reading articles I disagree with...as long as they're written intelligently. DK's views on how the team should be run are, at best, uninformed. But god forbid anybody take him to task and tell him how wrong he is.

Couldn't care less about his beat coverage. That's a role where they say "hey, here's your story, fluff it up and make it sound pretty". Which DK can do. Asking him to write opinion columns, however, makes things dicey. He's not educated enough on the sports he covers to draw sound conclusions.

It's nice that he has Rob Rossi at the Trib for hockey. No doubt. He rips off Rob's ideas, writes them incredibly eloquently, and everybody is happy.

Like I said (and I also said this last year when people posted his article on another site around this time), of course he's positive now. Everybody is positive now and the audience that he panders to wants an upbeat column. IF things go south though, rather than write a column backed by facts or how baseball actually works, he'll be right back on the Fire Coonelly/Huntington crusade.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:56 pm 
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DK ain't the only one who said Nutting would fire Huntington and company after the 2013 season...

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/danny ... ep-forward

http://www.whygavs.com/pittsburgh-pirat ... -year.html

I believe that Nutting and DK had a conversation during which Nutting told DK that his demand is that the Pirates contend through September. I don't doubt that for a second. DK has no reason to lie about it. Plus, you add up Nutting's QUOTES and it makes perfect sense. Buster Olney implied it. Pat Lackey implied it. Danny Knobler implied it.

So there you go.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:59 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Cherry-picking again...

I never said DK didn't want the Pirates to get rid of Coonelly, Huntington, Stark, and Smith. He did. He said so. That's a strawman. That's not what we're talking about at all. Try to stay on topic.

We're talking about DK's respect for and support of Bob Nutting. And his criticism of Nutting's decision to keep the current front office does not somehow make his prior and subsequent support for the man disappear. Not only that, he notes Nutting's intelligence and thorough review of the front office in the very piece from which you quote. DK also consistently confronts the "cheap Nutting" crowd in support of current ownership.

You can take one column written by DK that primarily criticizes the front office and argue that he hasn't been supportive of Bob Nutting. I have 6 full years of DK's writings, columns, and interactions with Bob Nutting on my side.


You wrote that DK has consistently supported Nutting.

I point out that DK characterized Nutting's decision to keep Coonelly, Huntington, Stark and Smith after performing a 42 day CSI like investigation that should have been the cherry on the top of "abject failure" as "weak," "wishy-washy" and "stale."

To me . . . criticizing Nutting's decision on an issue that Kovacevic believed to be a "no brainer" after Nutting performed a thorough investigation and referring to Nutting's decision on top management as "weak," "wishy-washy" and "stale" and choosing failure is not support of Bob Nutting. Not even remotely close. It is a public slap in the face. Particularly when . . . 42 days before Nutting's decision . . . he wrote this column: http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/2 ... z2XGW0ivym

In that linked column, he included this line: But that's how Nutting does it, and, as long as he's thorough, I won't take issue.

I repeat . . . as long as he's thorough, I won't take issue.

Yet . . 42 days later . . after specifically noting that . . . no . . . let me use your words JC . . . after a "thorough" investigation . . . an investigation described by Kovacevic as "CSI" like . . . what did he do? He took issue. He called it "weak," "wishy-washy" and "stale." He called it "choosing failure." If that isn't "taking issue," I don't know what is. Sorry . . . I don't share your conclusion that Kovacevic has "consistently" expressed support.

If one of your law partners comes into your office and refers to your work product as "weak," "wishy-washy" and "stale," I suspect that you won't feel warm and fuzzy, reach out and shake your partners hand and say "Gee . . . I really appreciate your support. It means the world to me. Thanks." I know that I wouldn't feel that way.

And . . . for what its worth . . . I read his column last night and thought it was very well-written. Didn't agree with some of his conclusions but it was a well-written piece and I could relate to some of his observations/comments.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:59 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
I'm fine with reading articles I disagree with...as long as they're written intelligently. DK's views on how the team should be run are, at best, uninformed. But god forbid anybody take him to task and tell him how wrong he is.

Couldn't care less about his beat coverage. That's a role where they say "hey, here's your story, fluff it up and make it sound pretty". Which DK can do. Asking him to write opinion columns, however, makes things dicey. He's not educated enough on the sports he covers to draw sound conclusions.

It's nice that he has Rob Rossi at the Trib for hockey. No doubt. He rips off Rob's ideas, writes them incredibly eloquently, and everybody is happy.

Like I said (and I also said this last year when people posted his article on another site around this time), of course he's positive now. Everybody is positive now and the audience that he panders to wants an upbeat column. IF things go south though, rather than write a column backed by facts or how baseball actually works, he'll be right back on the Fire Coonelly/Huntington crusade.


If you think DK doesn't know enough about sports, then you're grossly misinformed. He knows a TON about hockey and baseball, and quite a bit about the Olympics. He's not as sound on football (an area in which I have a bit of expertise), but otherwise he has excellent general sports knowledge.

Who do you read, StarlingArcher? My guys are DK, Jonah Keri, Aaron Schatz, Pierre LeBrun, Charles Pierce, Bill Simmons, Buster Olney, and myriad others.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:01 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
...But you add up those quotes and you see an absolute DEMAND by Nutting that the Pirates have to make a run and have to contend for a playoff spot in September and, if they don't, he will "make a change."

If you don't see that, I can't help you.


Wow. But, its intelligent and insightful if DK sees that DEMAND by Nutting and writes up that way? That DK uses those non-quotes as seeing that the FO is on the "brink of being fired", and that five years of gradual, measured improvement are "abject failure".

Got it.

ZM


He connected the dots. Just like Danny Knobler does in the CBS article in which he writes that the Pirates need to take a step forward "or else." DK isn't the only sports writer who said that the FO will be fired if things don't go well in 2013, my friend.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:03 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
You wrote that DK has consistently supported Nutting.

I point out that DK characterized Nutting's decision to keep Coonelly, Huntington, Stark and Smith after performing a 42 day CSI like investigation that should have been the cherry on the top of "abject failure" as "weak," "wishy-washy" and "stale."

To me . . . criticizing Nutting's decision on an issue that Kovacevic believed to be a "no brainer" after Nutting performed a thorough investigation and referring to Nutting's decision on top management as "weak," "wishy-washy" and "stale" and choosing failure is not support of Bob Nutting. Not even remotely close. It is a public slap in the face. Particularly when . . . 42 days before Nutting's decision . . . he wrote this column: http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/2 ... z2XGW0ivym

In that linked column, he included this line: But that's how Nutting does it, and, as long as he's thorough, I won't take issue.

I repeat . . . as long as he's thorough, I won't take issue.

Yet . . 42 days later . . after specifically noting that . . . no . . . let me use your words JC . . . after a "thorough" investigation . . . an investigation described by Kovacevic as "CSI" like . . . what did he do? He took issue. He called it "weak," "wishy-washy" and "stale." He called it "choosing failure." If that isn't "taking issue," I don't know what is. Sorry . . . I don't share your conclusion that Kovacevic has "consistently" expressed support.

If one of your law partners comes into your office and refers to your work product as "weak," "wishy-washy" and "stale," I suspect that you won't feel warm and fuzzy, reach out and shake your partners hand and say "Gee . . . I really appreciate your support. It means the world to me. Thanks." I know that I wouldn't feel that way.


DK believes Nutting came to the wrong conclusion. He certainly voiced support for the process. And he concedes that Nutting acted with information superior to his own. Again, you're pointing to a single column over six years. I can post dozens of examples -- including today's column -- in which DK writes of Nutting in glowing terms. That's consistent.

No. 9 wrote:
And . . . for what its worth . . . I read his column last night and thought it was very well-written. Didn't agree with some of his conclusions but it was a well-written piece and I could relate to some of his observations/comments.


I'm glad you enjoyed it. My favorite Pirates column of the year thus far.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Keri, pretty much anybody Fangraphs for baseball, Law, random links I find in blogs but nobody that's really stuck.

Almost any Grantland for professional basketball, Pomeroy for college.

Hockey I stick TSN.

Football I don't really read a ton about.

And DK is absolutely clueless on baseball. I absolutely refuse to hear otherwise. No. 9's chat comments that he posted just showed that he's incapable of seeing the landscape and understanding the process necessary to build a small market team up from the ashes.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:07 pm 
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In all seriousness, add up the quotes from Nutting:

"we're in a position now we've got to make a run"
"we're going to be playing exciting games throughout the summer"
"we're going to play meaningful games in September"
and then...
"we've absolutely shown we're willing to make a change if we need to irrespective of the contract term"

Now tell me, honestly, that you haven't come to the conclusion that Coonelly/Huntington/Stark/Broadway/Smith are on the chopping block if the Pirates don't make a run through September.

As I noted, you can't expect Nutting to be publicly quoted that he will fire those guys if they don't meet a certain threshold. That wouldn't be productive, and it could potentially send the wrong signal to the next management team brought in. But you add up those quotes and you see an absolute DEMAND by Nutting that the Pirates have to make a run and have to contend for a playoff spot in September and, if they don't, he will "make a change."

DK saw it. Buster Olney saw it. Pat Lackey saw it. Danny Knobler saw it. I saw it. Can you see it?


Last edited by J_C_Steel on Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:08 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
And DK is absolutely clueless on baseball. I absolutely refuse to hear otherwise. No. 9's chat comments that he posted just showed that he's incapable of seeing the landscape and understanding the process necessary to build a small market team up from the ashes.


I guess guys who are "clueless on baseball" win awards for writing from Baseball America. On balance, my friend, I think I'll trust BA more than your opinion. Thanks, though.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:09 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
And DK is absolutely clueless on baseball. I absolutely refuse to hear otherwise. No. 9's chat comments that he posted just showed that he's incapable of seeing the landscape and understanding the process necessary to build a small market team up from the ashes.


I guess guys who are "clueless on baseball" win awards for writing from Baseball America. On balance, my friend, I think I'll trust BA more than your opinion. Thanks, though.


Again, beat writer vs. opinion piece. Vastly different amounts of baseball knowledge required.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:09 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Wow. Really? Yep. Really.

You don't read quotes from Nutting like "we're in a position now we've got to make a run" and "we're going to be playing exciting games throughout the summer" and "we're going to play meaningful games in September" combined with a quote stating that "we've absolutely shown we're willing to make a change if we need to irrespective of the contract term" and come to the conclusion that Coonelly/Huntington/Stark/Broadway/Smith are on the chopping block if the Pirates don't make a run through September? Really? I READ THAT AS NUTTING SAYING THAT HE WILL EVALUATE ALL OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS AT THE END OF THE YEAR, REGARDLESS OF CONTRACT STATUS. I DO NOT READ THAT AS "NUTTING HAS SAID THAT IF THE 'PIRATES DON'T COMPETE DEEP INTO SEPTEMBER, NH AND FC WILL BE FIRED.'"

Wow. You don't expect Nutting to be publicly quoted that he will fire those guys if they don't meet a certain threshold, do you? NO I DON'T. THAT WAS EXACTLY THE POINT OF MY POST. YET. . . READING KOVACEVIC . . . THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT NUTTING HAS SAID. VERBATIM. AND I DON'T BELIEVE . . . AS KOVACEVIC WOULD LEAD YOU TO BELIEVE . . . THAT THOSE ARE THE WORDS UTTERED BY NUTTING. NOT BUYING IT. That wouldn't be productive, and it could potentially send the wrong signal to the next management team brought in. But you add up those quotes and you see an absolute DEMAND by Nutting that the Pirates have to make a run and have to contend for a playoff spot in September and, if they don't, he will "make a change." I SEE NO EDICT THERE AT ALL. NONE. HE "WILL" MAKE A CHANGE? WHERE DOES HE COMMIT TO THAT POSITION - AS KOVACEVIC POSITS?

If you don't see that, I can't help you. That's fine. Never asked for it. Don't need it.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:10 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
DK saw it. Buster Olney saw it. Pat Lackey saw it. Danny Knobler saw it. I saw it. Can you see it?



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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:15 pm 
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DK is not clueless on baseball Starling. He is pretty knowledgeable of MLB caliber players. But, that is it. On development and the minors in general, he demonstrates no in-depth understanding. He expects every draft to be perfect, every selection to work out, and god forbid you hire a young director of the system who hasn't coached before. Because, you can't possibly manage a system without having played before.

This is evident in his continuing referral to the minor league system as "abject failure" when it is proving a model of development. That is projecting 5 losing seasons on the minor league system.

That is why, in his chat a couple weeks ago, when asked what the Bucs would do now that AJ and Wandy were down, and Morton not yet back, his response was the sarcastic "Well, the minor leagues system is SO deep, that they'll just plug someone in (paraphrase)". And, when Crumpton shows up and does just fine, thank you very much; When Welker comes in dealing 97, thank you Duke; he becomes ummmm... silent.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:17 pm 
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No. 9 -- read the additional articles above. Pat Lackey and Danny Knobler both state that Huntington and company will be fired if the Pirates don't contend in 2013. DK wasn't the only one saying this.

The only thing unique to DK is his fairly regular access to and conversations with Bob Nutting. And he has absolutely NO REASON to lie about Nutting telling him that the standard for 2013 is the Pirates contending through September. Period. In fact, since DK has written it so many times, and Nutting certainly knows that DK has done so, if it WAS inaccurate, wouldn't you expect Nutting to issue a statement or give a quote to another writer contradicting DK's assertion? I sure would.

I don't think anyone taking an honest, objective view of the quotes by Bob Nutting can come to any conclusion except that the Pirates better contend in September if Huntington and company still want their jobs in 2014.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:22 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
DK is not clueless on baseball Starling. He is pretty knowledgeable of MLB caliber players. But, that is it. On development and the minors in general, he demonstrates no in-depth understanding. He expects every draft to be perfect, every selection to work out, and god forbid you hire a young director of the system who hasn't coached before. Because, you can't possibly manage a system without having played before.

This is evident in his continuing referral to the minor league system as "abject failure" when it is proving a model of development. That is projecting 5 losing seasons on the minor league system.

That is why, in his chat a couple weeks ago, when asked what the Bucs would do now that AJ and Wandy were down, and Morton not yet back, his response was the sarcastic "Well, the minor leagues system is SO deep, that they'll just plug someone in (paraphrase)". And, when Crumpton shows up and does just fine, thank you very much; When Welker comes in dealing 97, thank you Duke; he becomes ummmm... silent.

ZM


So, in other words, he knows nothing about baseball. The draft and minors are an integral part of any franchise, and especially the Pirates.

If he's incapable of seeing the big picture of the franchise, he shouldn't be offering opinions on the state of the franchise. Like I've said, he's uninformed at best (aka if being polite).

Hey, maybe I'll apply to the Trib to cover basketball. I'm pretty good at identifying guys who are excellent rebounders so that should be enough to cover Pitt, Duquesne, and Bobby Mo, right? Pretty much Dejan's knowledge extent in baseball.

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Last edited by StarlingArcher on Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:25 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
DK is not clueless on baseball Starling. He is pretty knowledgeable of MLB caliber players. But, that is it. On development and the minors in general, he demonstrates no in-depth understanding. He expects every draft to be perfect, every selection to work out, and god forbid you hire a young director of the system who hasn't coached before. Because, you can't possibly manage a system without having played before.

This is evident in his continuing referral to the minor league system as "abject failure" when it is proving a model of development. That is projecting 5 losing seasons on the minor league system.

That is why, in his chat a couple weeks ago, when asked what the Bucs would do now that AJ and Wandy were down, and Morton not yet back, his response was the sarcastic "Well, the minor leagues system is SO deep, that they'll just plug someone in (paraphrase)". And, when Crumpton shows up and does just fine, thank you very much; When Welker comes in dealing 97, thank you Duke; he becomes ummmm... silent.

ZM


So, in other words, he knows nothing about baseball except for a small part of it. The draft and minors are an integral part of any franchise, and especially the Pirates.

If he's incapable of seeing the big picture of the franchise, he shouldn't be offering opinions on the state of the franchise. Like I've said, he's uninformed at best.

Hey, maybe I'll apply to the Trib to cover basketball. I'm pretty good at identifying guys who are excellent rebounders so that should be enough to cover Pitt, Duquesne, and Bobby Mo, right? Pretty much Dejan's knowledge extent in baseball.


You guys are posting wholly inaccurate generalities. DK has a very good understanding of the draft, the hit/miss percentages, and the international market. In fact, he was consulted by filmakers about the Sano documentary (though he did not provide anything beyond his coverage) and has a very good relationship with Rene Gayo.

But hey, believe what you want. I'll trust the fact that he has been granted a vote by the Baseball Writers of America and won awards for his coverage. I'm thinking those folks may know a bit more about who knows baseball than you two.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:29 pm 
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Were those awards before or after he decided he had an axe to grind with management?

Because the drivel that's come forth from him since then has been embarrassing. For a guy who apparently understands drafts, he certainly feigns ignorance with the best of them.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:29 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
In all seriousness, add up the quotes from Nutting:

"we're in a position now we've got to make a run"
"we're going to be playing exciting games throughout the summer"
"we're going to play meaningful games in September"
and then...
"we've absolutely shown we're willing to make a change if we need to irrespective of the contract term"

Now tell me, honestly, that you haven't come to the conclusion that Coonelly/Huntington/Stark/Broadway/Smith are on the chopping block if the Pirates don't make a run through September.

As I noted, you can't expect Nutting to be publicly quoted that he will fire those guys if they don't meet a certain threshold. That wouldn't be productive, and it could potentially send the wrong signal to the next management team brought in. But you add up those quotes and you see an absolute DEMAND by Nutting that the Pirates have to make a run and have to contend for a playoff spot in September and, if they don't, he will "make a change."

DK saw it. Buster Olney saw it. Pat Lackey saw it. Danny Knobler saw it. I saw it. Can you see it?


You could adopt two approaches:

Bob Nutting has stated his expectations that we are in a position to win now and he expects the Pirates to be playing exciting baseball this Summer and meaningful baseball in September. He also stated that, if he deems it necessary, he will make changes regardless of contract status. I suspect that, unlike previous Falls, the year-end evaluation of Huntington and Coonelly will be less deferential than in the past. After all, Coonelly and Huntington have been guiding the ship for 6 years. And, as I have documented extensively, it hasn't exactly been smooth sailing. If Nutting doesn't feel as though sufficient progress and development has been made, he won't hesitate to pull the trigger and bring in a new management team. It is my impression, based upon Nutting's comments, that Huntington and Coonelly won't be extended by Nutting unless the Pirates are in contention for a playoff spot in the last 2 weeks of the season.

OR

Bob Nutting has stated - "his words, not mine" that, unless the Pirates are contending deep into September, Huntington and Coonelly will be fired.

I don't disagree that Nutting's comments indicate his expectations and they are loftier expectations that in the past. I do disagree that those comments are the equal of "contend deep into September or lose your job." Those are not his exact words. That may be Kovacevic, Olney, or Lackey's interpretation . . . but that is not what Kovacevic is peddling. He is claiming that Nutting has issued an edict "contend" or "be fired." As pointed out in your earlier post . . . Kovacevic is claiming that those are Nutting's words. Unless someone can show me a quote, I think that
he's overreaching.

And, given his admitted and well-documented dislike of management and claims of management incompetance, it is fair to question whether there are underlying motivations for making such a claim.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:32 pm 
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I would suggest everyone just stop posting in this thread. J_C will just start some other random DK thread in a month or two, praying that someone questions his/the sportswriter's subjective view (or if they don't, like in the case of this thread, he'll bump it himself to ensure he gets a response) on how a professional baseball team should be ran so he can sit perched above his keyboard ready to fire off the same old multi-paragraph defenses of DK which are sometimes so bizarre it's as if he was actually a member of the Kovacevic family, doing all kinds of projecting about the intent of other poster's opinions (and of course the condescendingly calling someone "my friend" all the time). The obsession can be seen in several old threads on this very topic. The absolute dumbest thing in this thread was back on page three when he posted the new article and says he'll continue to enjoy how great they are while everyone else will "nitpick the language." His obsession and commitment to defending the guy on every angle possible infinitely outshadows his allegations that the board is obsessed with irrationally ripping DK apart. A local sportswriter who has to come out with an article about things he has gotten wrong has a polarizing/sometimes negative reputation among places like here and Bucs Dugout. Oh the horror! Give it a rest, it's getting embarrassing. Really, always has been.


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