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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:36 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I don't disagree that Nutting's comments indicate his expectations and they are loftier expectations that in the past. I do disagree that those comments are the equal of "contend deep into September or lose your job." Those are not his exact words. That may be Kovacevic, Olney, or Lackey's interpretation . . . but that is not what Kovacevic is peddling. He is claiming that Nutting has issued an edict "contend" or "be fired." As pointed out in your earlier post . . . Kovacevic is claiming that those are Nutting's words. Unless someone can show me a quote, I think that he's overreaching.


A quote like "we've got to make a run" doesn't leave much wiggle room, my friend. That's an imperative. A demand. An "edict," if you will. And Kovacevic has numerous conversations with Bob Nutting. Do you? As I note above, DK has absolutely NO REASON to lie about Nutting telling him that the standard for 2013 is the Pirates contending through September. Period. In fact, since DK has written it so many times, and Nutting certainly knows that DK has done so, if it WAS inaccurate, wouldn't you expect Nutting to issue a statement or give a quote to another writer contradicting DK's assertion? I sure would.

No. 9 wrote:
And, given his admitted and well-documented dislike of management and claims of management incompetance, it is fair to question whether there are underlying motivations for making such a claim.


What's funny to me is that you're willing to speculate about DK's motivations but you're unwilling to connect the rather obvious dots contained in Nutting's quotes. You're also apparently willing to claim that DK is LYING about Nutting telling him what the bar is for the Pirates' FO in 2013. When, of course, DK has no reason to jeopardize his journalistic reputation or risk being taken down by a contrary quote by Nutting to another writer.

Did you read the Lackey and Knobler pieces? Where those guys state that the Pirates need to contend "or else"? Do those guys have similar alleged axes to grind with the Pirates' FO?


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:38 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
I would suggest everyone just stop posting in this thread. J_C will just start some other random DK thread in a month or two, praying that someone questions his/the sportswriter's subjective view (or if they don't, like in the case of this thread, he'll bump it himself to ensure he gets a response) on how a professional baseball team should be ran so he can sit perched above his keyboard ready to fire off the same old multi-paragraph defenses of DK which are sometimes so bizarre it's as if he was actually a member of the Kovacevic family, doing all kinds of projecting about the intent of other poster's opinions (and of course the condescendingly calling someone "my friend" all the time). The obsession can be seen in several old threads on this very topic. The absolute dumbest thing in this thread was back on page three when he posted the new article and says he'll continue to enjoy how great they are while everyone else will "nitpick the language." His obsession and commitment to defending the guy on every angle possible infinitely outshadows his allegations that the board is obsessed with irrationally ripping DK apart. A local sportswriter who has to come out with an article about things he has gotten wrong has a polarizing/sometimes negative reputation among places like here and Bucs Dugout. Oh the horror! Give it a rest, it's getting embarrassing. Really, always has been.


One thing. When I write "my friend" I'm not being condescending. From a virtual perspective, given that we're all Pirates fans and I enjoy spending time here posting and reading, I do consider yinz to be "my friends."


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:39 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 -- read the additional articles above. Pat Lackey and Danny Knobler both state that Huntington and company will be fired if the Pirates don't contend in 2013. DK wasn't the only one saying this.


"It is my opinion, based upon Nutting's comments, that Huntington will be fired if the Pirates don't compete deep into September." DK OFFERING AN OPINION

"Bob Nutting has said that that Huntington will be fired if the Pirates don't compete deep into September." DK REPORTING A FACT

See the difference? Huge. He's reporting - as fact - his interpretation and opinion. Misguided at best. Intellectually dishonest at worst.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:42 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:

I'd love to find the sports writer who got to have a frank sit-down with Frank Coonelly after his embarrassing DUI. Who got that interview?

I assume Paul Alexander... :D


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:46 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 -- read the additional articles above. Pat Lackey and Danny Knobler both state that Huntington and company will be fired if the Pirates don't contend in 2013. DK wasn't the only one saying this.


"It is my opinion, based upon Nutting's comments, that Huntington will be fired if the Pirates don't compete deep into September." DK OFFERING AN OPINION

"Bob Nutting has said that that Huntington will be fired if the Pirates don't compete deep into September." DK REPORTING A FACT

See the difference? Huge. He's reporting - as fact - his interpretation and opinion. Misguided at best. Intellectually dishonest at worst.


This is what DK said: "According to Bob Nutting — not me — the Pirates must contend for a playoff spot through September. That's his bar. I'll assume he didn't set it for show."

DK has discussions with Nutting. DK connected the dots of Nutting's quotes. So did Pat Lackey. So did Danny Knobler, who explicitly wrote that the Pirates need to take a big step forward "or else," meaning if they don't, Huntington and company will be fired. He didn't say "in my opinion." Do you have enough animus left over to direct some toward Mr. Knobler?

If DK is wrong (and Lackey is wrong and Knobler is wrong), I would certainly expect Nutting to correct him. Or at least shut off access. That's what any reasonable person would do if he was grossly misinterpreted.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Kovacevic: Bob Nutting has said that unless the Pirates contend deep into September, Huntington and Coonelly will be fired. KOVACEVIC REPORTS - AS FACT - HIS INTERPRETATION AND OPINION OF NUTTING'S COMMENTS.

Danny Knobler: Pressed on what would constitute "a step forward," Nutting refused to get any more specific. He said that winning a World Series is the ultimate goal, and the only one that matters in the end. KNOBLER REPORTS, AS FACT, THAT NUTTING WOULDN'T COMMIT TO WHAT CONSTITUTES "A STEP FORWARD."

Pat Lackey: I think that Nutting's statement yesterday tells us that he's giving Huntington one more year to prove himself. As I said above, I've already made up my mind and I think that he's a competent and unspectacular general manager in a market that needs a spectacular one to be a true competitor in Bud Selig's 21st Century Major League Baseball. I'm hoping I'm wrong, though. If Nutting is willing to give Huntington and his staff one more season, then I'm willing to plant a seed of doubt in my own conclusion and see how this winter and the coming season unfold objectively. As a Pirate fan, is there really any other choice? LACKEY OFFERS HIS OPINION AS TO NUTTING'S COMMENTS.

Taking Shark's advice now . . . c'est la. No mas.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:54 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Kovacevic: Bob Nutting has said that unless the Pirates contend deep into September, Huntington and Coonelly will be fired. KOVACEVIC REPORTS - AS FACT - HIS INTERPRETATION AND OPINION OF NUTTING'S COMMENTS.


Show me that quote.

I actually put in Kovacevic's quote, which qualifies it by noting that Nutting's bar is contention into September (which is part of a Nutting quote) and that DK assumes Nutting didn't set that bar "for show." Using the word "assume" means that DK is offering an opinion (i.e., an assumption is a type of opinion). Why'd you ignore that part of the quote, No. 9? DK's giving an OPINION.

And you still haven't answered my follow-up query: DK has absolutely NO REASON to lie about Nutting telling him that the standard for 2013 is the Pirates contending through September. Period. In fact, since DK has written it so many times, and Nutting certainly knows that DK has done so, if it WAS inaccurate, wouldn't you expect Nutting to issue a statement or give a quote to another writer contradicting DK's assertion? I sure would.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:08 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
This is evident in his continuing referral to the minor league system as "abject failure" when it is proving a model of development. That is projecting 5 losing seasons on the minor league system.

That is why, in his chat a couple weeks ago, when asked what the Bucs would do now that AJ and Wandy were down, and Morton not yet back, his response was the sarcastic "Well, the minor leagues system is SO deep, that they'll just plug someone in (paraphrase)". And, when Crumpton shows up and does just fine, thank you very much; When Welker comes in dealing 97, thank you Duke; he becomes ummmm... silent.


Exactly....just about anyone can watch MLB and if they watch long enough can spot the wheat from the chaff...not rocket science... 8-) 8-)

J_C_Steel wrote:
But hey, believe what you want. I'll trust the fact that he has been granted a vote by the Baseball Writers of America and won awards for his coverage. I'm thinking those folks may know a bit more about who knows baseball than you two


Sorry but just because a bunch of your peers like and respect what you write, there is no validity in quantifying a superior knowledge of the game on their part. He once told me in person and also said this on the board that opinions of fans who watched games on tv were inconsequential because you had to see the game in person to see the whole picture. There is a certain amount of validity in that, but, you can also see things during the game on tv, using replays, camera angles,etc., that you cannot if you are at the game. His arrogance about his understanding and knowledge of the game is laughable.

And as far as sportswriters being "genius'" of the sport they cover, Ed McCluskey, legendary Farrell HS basketball coach, once told us at a camp I attended, that as far as basketball was concerned, most writers couldn't tell you if (referring to the ball) you blew it up or stuffed it.... 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:09 pm 
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I would never claim that DK is a genius. I mean, other than me, who really is? (Kidding.)

I just think he knows baseball pretty darn well. He's not Peter Gammons or Billy Beane or Vin Scully or anything, but he knows the sport. That's all.


Last edited by J_C_Steel on Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:12 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
I just think he knows baseball pretty darn well.


In his mind....he is no more knowledgeable than any of us here on this board....perhaps less than most.... 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
I just think he knows baseball pretty darn well.


In his mind....he is no more knowledgeable than any of us here on this board....perhaps less than most.... 8-) 8-)


I'll volunteer that he knows more than I do. Covering baseball day-in and day-out simply gives him more experience than I have. I just read some columns, some articles, and some statistics.

I've played football, worked on football coaching staffs, written for some football websites, and seen a LOT of football in my life, so I'd say I know that sport very well.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Covering baseball day in and day out gives him no ability to understand the economics, the farm system, or the philosophy behind management of a small market team.

It allows him to see what's going on in front of him and adequately report it. Nothing more, nothing less.

And that's shown in his opinions and conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:21 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Covering baseball day in and day out gives him no ability to understand the economics, the farm system, or the philosophy behind management of a small market team.

It allows him to see what's going on in front of him and adequately report it. Nothing more, nothing less.

And that's shown in his opinions and conclusions.


He covered and wrote about the economics, the farm syste, the philosophy behind management's decisions, and all of the other myriad baseball issues inherent in following a club. When you're on the beat, you're not just covering 3 hours 162 times per year.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:24 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:

He covered and wrote about the economics, the farm syste, the philosophy behind management's decisions, and all of the other myriad baseball issues inherent in following a club. When you're on the beat, you're not just covering 3 hours 162 times per year.


Then why is he such a dolt about all of those things in every single opinion column he writes?

Either he didn't understand it, was merely parroting things he was told while on the beat, or has eschewed knowledgeable and reasonable positions backed by facts in favor of railing against management.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:27 pm 
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StarlingArcher -- read these columns and tell me DK doesn't know anything about the economics of baseball...

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2XKs8kXyI

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2XKs8kXyI


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:31 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
StarlingArcher -- read these columns and tell me DK doesn't know anything about the economics of baseball...

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2XKs8kXyI

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2XKs8kXyI


Soooo then he's a hypocrite? Because he was saying the exact opposite of those things last year at the trade deadline during his Twitter meltdowns and the plan of management hadn't changed one iota. Again, if he knows baseball, he isn't showing it....falling into my 3rd option where he's just ignoring facts in favor of a pointless crusade.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:34 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
StarlingArcher -- read these columns and tell me DK doesn't know anything about the economics of baseball...

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2XKs8kXyI

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2XKs8kXyI


Soooo then he's a hypocrite? Because he was saying the exact opposite of those things last year at the trade deadline during his Twitter meltdowns. Again, if he knows baseball, he isn't showing it....falling into my 3rd option where he's just ignoring facts in favor of a pointless crusade.


Soooo then you haven't been reading his stuff over the years? But you feel like you can opine on his expertise?

He didn't say "the exact opposite" of those things at the trade deadline last year. He expressed his opinion that the Pirates should go for it and trade away some assets for a big gun. You know, the way YOU are on this board concerning Giancarlo Stanton. That doesn't mean you eschew the value of a good farm system; rather, it means you recognize opportunity when you see it.

Try to keep up.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Chase Headley is not, was not, and never will be Giancarlo Stanton. You don't trade for a 28 year old at that point in time, at the price the Padres were asking.

Dejan knew that. If he knows baseball, there's no way he didn't know that. Instead, he acted like it would've been the most brilliant baseball move ever in order to set himself up to rail on management.

He praises the Josh Bell signing back in 2011....then speaks on repeated draft failures and mocks the minor leagues in 2012?

Again. He's incredibly hypocritical and takes positions not based in reality. And, the more you post from him, the more I'm believing that he's doing it on purpose for no other reason than being a petulant child who can't accept that he didn't get his way in terms of interviews and quotes.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:40 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 -- read the additional articles above. Pat Lackey and Danny Knobler both state that Huntington and company will be fired if the Pirates don't contend in 2013. DK wasn't the only one saying this.

DK lobbied for them to be fired last winter.

I shudder at the thought of the years of work building up the major league roster, adding top-tier young talent like Cole, Taillon, Polanco, Hanson, McGuire, Meadows (we hope), putting together a minor league system that is likely to be ranked 2nd or 3rd best in MLB and loaded with elite, game-changer types rather than the 1.0-2.0 WAR type guys the predecessors hoarded, building one of the best group of hard-throwing young arms in the game, seeing definite improvement in the quality of play and the results 2010-present and deciding to fire the guy who did this, and start over.

Oh, and if one responds, "Well, the new guy coming in has a boatload of young talent" ... just think that over for a second.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
In his mind....he is no more knowledgeable than any of us here on this board....perhaps less than most.... 8-) 8-)

More than me, of course, but come on ... that is the lowest bar imaginable. :D


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