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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:48 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Chase Headley is not, was not, and never will be Giancarlo Stanton. You don't trade for a 28 year old at that point in time, at the price the Padres were asking.

Dejan knew that. If he knows baseball, there's no way he didn't know that. Instead, he acted like it would've been the most brilliant baseball move ever in order to set himself up to rail on management.

He praises the Josh Bell signing back in 2011....then speaks on repeated draft failures and mocks the minor leagues in 2012?

Again. He's incredibly hypocritical and takes positions not based in reality. And, the more you post from him, the more I'm believing that he's doing it on purpose for no other reason than being a petulant child who can't accept that he didn't get his way in terms of interviews and quotes.


You realize these are opinions, correct? I don't care what people say, he knows more about the Pirates and their system than any of us, and it isn't close. You don't do what he does for as long as he's done it without gaining that knowledge. I guarantee you that every single poster on this board has ripped Pirates management on multiple occasions over the past six-plus years. I have and did during the epic collapse of 2012. I thought they should have been a little more bold during the deadline last year. Does that make me a hypocrite because on a day-to-day basis my feelings and attitude towards certain things change? I don't want to live in a world where everyone agrees, all the time. Holy vanilla. I just can't stand it when people tarnish the ethics and integrity of someone just because they don't agree.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:53 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Chase Headley is not, was not, and never will be Giancarlo Stanton. You don't trade for a 28 year old at that point in time, at the price the Padres were asking.

Dejan knew that. If he knows baseball, there's no way he didn't know that. Instead, he acted like it would've been the most brilliant baseball move ever in order to set himself up to rail on management.


You're missing the point, which is that it's not at all hypocritical to advocate BOTH building up the farm system AND trading for an impact bat during the season. Headley ain't Stanton, but he had a torried 2012 and would have really helped the Pirates down the stretch. Would it have mattered? No, because the pitching fell apart.

In any event, DK understand the value of a farm system and the opportunity that arises when a team is in first place in July.

StarlingArcher wrote:
He praises the Josh Bell signing back in 2011....then speaks on repeated draft failures and mocks the minor leagues in 2012?


Huh? Are you suggesting that because the front office made a good move by drafting and signing Josh Bell in 2011 they are immune from draft failures? Is that what you're saying here? Because if so, that's insane.

Huntington and company have made some good moves and they've made some bad moves. The minor league system has improved, but it's an open question whether it has improved by as much as it should have given the Pirates' draft position and investment. My opinion on that is starting to change as I see guys like Glasnow and Kingham rise through the ranks.

StarlingArcher wrote:
Again. He's incredibly hypocritical and takes positions not based in reality. And, the more you post from him, the more I'm believing that he's doing it on purpose for no other reason than being a petulant child who can't accept that he didn't get his way in terms of interviews and quotes.


He's not "incredibly hypocritical" at all. You didn't even know about his prior columns on the economics of baseball. I've been reading his stuff for years, and I can tell you there are good reasons why he's gained in stature and readership.

If you're going to accuse someone of being a "petulant child," at least first try to get all the facts you can. Otherwise, you ending up looking very foolish. You know, like now.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:56 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
You realize these are opinions, correct? I don't care what people say, he knows more about the Pirates and their system than any of us, and it isn't close. You don't do what he does for as long as he's done it without gaining that knowledge. I guarantee you that every single poster on this board has ripped Pirates management on multiple occasions over the past six-plus years. I have and did during the epic collapse of 2012. I thought they should have been a little more bold during the deadline last year. Does that make me a hypocrite because on a day-to-day basis my feelings and attitude towards certain things change? I don't want to live in a world where everyone agrees, all the time. Holy vanilla. I just can't stand it when people tarnish the ethics and integrity of someone just because they don't agree.


Have to disagree on him knowing the system.

I get that it's his opinion, but it was economically a terrible opinion and not reason to rail against management and throw a tantrum on Twitter.

Sure, I've bashed management. Lord knows if they trade anybody above an Adalberto Santos type for Alex Rios I'll have a conniption.

There's a difference between having an opinion, and having a tantrum ripping management when they made the correct decision economically. Lay out why you'd have done it....don't rail on the front office for doing what's prudent.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
DK lobbied for them to be fired last winter.


Lobbied is a strong word. DK certainly expressed his opinion that they deserved to be fired. I agreed with him at the time.

Bucfan wrote:
I shudder at the thought of the years of work building up the major league roster, adding top-tier young talent like Cole, Taillon, Polanco, Hanson, McGuire, Meadows (we hope), putting together a minor league system that is likely to be ranked 2nd or 3rd best in MLB and loaded with elite, game-changer types rather than the 1.0-2.0 WAR type guys the predecessors hoarded, building one of the best group of hard-throwing young arms in the game, seeing definite improvement in the quality of play and the results 2010-present and deciding to fire the guy who did this, and start over.

Oh, and if one responds, "Well, the new guy coming in has a boatload of young talent" ... just think that over for a second.


This is a fair opinion, Bucfan. I'd like to see some better players coming up from that expensive 2009 draft class, but it's becoming more clear that the Pirates have some serious high-end talent in their system right now. I'm starting to come around. That said, it's meaningless to me if it doesn't translate into MLB success.

I'm very impressed with what Huntington accomplished this past off-season. Martin was a coup, Liriano was a great signing, and the Hanrahan trade (even if it was partly luck) worked out perfectly for the Pirates. I can nit-pick about Jonathan Sanchez and John McDonald, but overall Huntington has put together a team with fewer weaknesses than we've seen in quite a long while. Do I think he's the best GM in baseball? No. Do I think he's building a team that has a chance to contend now and in the future? Yes.

I'll reserve my more enthusiastic praise until I see where the Pirates are in October...


Last edited by J_C_Steel on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:00 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Have to disagree on him knowing the system.

I get that it's his opinion, but it was economically a terrible opinion and not reason to rail against management and throw a tantrum on Twitter.

Sure, I've bashed management. Lord knows if they trade anybody above an Adalberto Santos type for Alex Rios I'll have a conniption.

There's a difference between having an opinion, and having a tantrum ripping management when they made the correct decision economically. Lay out why you'd have done it....don't rail on the front office for doing what's prudent.


Don't confuse a column with Twitter. Interactions between people on Twitter can be a glorified bar conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:11 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
You're missing the point, which is that it's not at all hypocritical to advocate BOTH building up the farm system AND trading for an impact bat during the season. Headley ain't Stanton, but he had a torried 2012 and would have really helped the Pirates down the stretch. Would it have mattered? No, because the pitching fell apart.

In any event, DK understand the value of a farm system and the opportunity that arises when a team is in first place in July.

Huh? Are you suggesting that because the front office made a good move by drafting and signing Josh Bell in 2011 they are immune from draft failures? Is that what you're saying here? Because if so, that's insane.

Huntington and company have made some good moves and they've made some bad moves. The minor league system has improved, but it's an open question whether it has improved by as much as it should have given the Pirates' draft position and investment. My opinion on that is starting to change as I see guys like Glasnow and Kingham rise through the ranks.

He's not "incredibly hypocritical" at all. You didn't even know about his prior columns on the economics of baseball. I've been reading his stuff for years, and I can tell you there are good reasons why he's gained in stature and readership.

If you're going to accuse someone of being a "petulant child," at least first try to get all the facts you can. Otherwise, you ending up looking very foolish. You know, like now.


You do not trade for a 28 year old at that point in your development cycle and at that asking price. You just don't. I don't care if he's an impact bat or not. All of their numbers screamed regression, none of their contending pitching core was up, and by the time they were Headley would be 30 and not worth an extension.

The Bell thing is relevant because there was absolutely nothing that occurred between 2011 and 2012 that would point to draft failures or a poor minor league. He praises it in 2011....then for no reason reverses course in 2012. All that happened in that time was the Pirates' minor league system vaulting into the Top 10, yet all of a sudden there are these big warts? Huh?

And yes, he is a hypocrite. You point to the economics columns as reason that he isn't. I say that they are all the evidence I need that he is. There was nothing done between those columns and present day that should lead to a complete about-face of position. Not one thing. Unless, of course, it's personal.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Edit: Double posted for some reason......

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Last edited by StarlingArcher on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:20 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
You do not trade for a 28 year old at that point in your development cycle and at that asking price. You just don't. I don't care if he's an impact bat or not. All of their numbers screamed regression, none of their contending pitching core was up, and by the time they were Headley would be 30 and not worth an extension.


That's criticizing a potential acquisition. Fine. How does that contradict DK's view (and your view, apparently) that teams must build up their farm systems? It doesn't. Accordingly, it's neither contradictory nor hypocritical for DK to hold the opinions that the Pirates must have a strong farm system and that the Pirates should consider trading for an impact bat.

Did you follow that?

StarlingArcher wrote:
The Bell thing is relevant because there was absolutely nothing that occurred between 2011 and 2012 that would point to draft failures or a poor minor league. He praises it in 2011....then for no reason reverses course in 2012. All that happened in that time was the Pirates' minor league system vaulting into the Top 10, yet all of a sudden there are these big warts? Huh?


You're simply wrong here. The 2009 draft has not been good at all. Before 2013, Tony Sanchez did not look like a remotely good 1st round selection. And even now, he's certainly not on the level of guys like Zach Wheeler, Jacob Turner, and Mike Trout... all of whom were chosen after him in the first round of the 2009 Rule IV draft.

It hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows, StarlingArcher. DK's questioning whether the Pirates have received appropriate return on their draft investments given their draft position and investment is completely legitimate. I harbor similar concerns, though I'm starting to come around. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case.

StarlingArcher wrote:
And yes, he is a hypocrite. You point to the economics columns as reason that he isn't. I say that they are all the evidence I need that he is. There was nothing done between those columns and present day that should lead to a complete about-face of position. Not one thing. Unless, of course, it's personal.


I would advise you to look up the term "hypocrite."



DK didn't take a "complete about-face" of any position. He understood the economics of baseball in 2011 and still does. As I noted at the very beginning of this (now very long) thread, DK's problem is not with the Pirates' "plan" but with their execution of the "plan." And until the Pirates break the streak and demonstrate sustained success, his criticisms (and those of others, including me) have quite a bit of merit.

Enjoy your day, sir.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
More than me, of course, but come on ... that is the lowest bar imaginable. :D


Knowing you as I do Bucfan, me thinks you underestimate yourself.... 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:44 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
You're simply wrong here. The 2009 draft has not been good at all. Before 2013, Tony Sanchez did not look like a remotely good 1st round selection. And even now, he's certainly not on the level of guys like Zach Wheeler, Jacob Turner, and Mike Trout... all of whom were chosen after him in the first round of the 2009 Rule IV draft.

Tony Sanchez looks like a starting major league catcher.

Victor Black is striking out 12 batters per 9 IP in the minors and is dealing at 99 mph. He is going to be in the bullpen later this year, and for the next several years, barring injury.

Two quality major league contributors, including a quality player at a position like C, is an okay draft. Calling it "not good at all" is not valid. It was not great, no question, but it was decent. I give it a C or C+ grade, potentially higher, depending on how Sanchez develops.

Just my take, where getting three major league players in a draft is very good.

By the way, for comparison purposes, the Tampa Bay Rays, a franchise that serves as a model for drafting and player development, selected LeVon Washington, Kenny Diekroeger, Todd Glaesman, Lucas Bailey, Jeff Maim, Devon Fuller, Cody Rogers, Brett Nommensen, Kevin James (not the comedian), and Derek Denis as their first ten picks. Not one of their picks has reached the majors, or is considered a prospect. (Two of the Pirates' 2009 picks - Sanchez and Philip Irwin - have already reached the majors, and but for Black's oblique injury, it would have been 3 by now.)

Think they would trade their draft for the Pirates' draft?

Oh, and as for Mike Trout ... Angels borrowed the Pirates' overpay philosophy to pry him away from a college scholarship, and drafted him immediately after using the 24th pick to select Randal Grichuk.


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Don't forget that Phil Irwin was 2009 as well. He's done nothing but produce since being drafted. Brock Holt as well, in addition to the guys you mentioned. It was a solid draft, even if the names we expected to produce didn't produce.

Plus saying that the Pirates haven't executed the plan (they've gone almost exactly by the book, save for the Wandy and Burnett trades) or drafted well based on 2009 when 2010, 2011, and 2012 have proved fruitful in terms of depth AND higher end results is really fixating on a minuscule sample size.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:00 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Have to disagree on him knowing the system.

I get that it's his opinion, but it was economically a terrible opinion and not reason to rail against management and throw a tantrum on Twitter.

Sure, I've bashed management. Lord knows if they trade anybody above an Adalberto Santos type for Alex Rios I'll have a conniption.

There's a difference between having an opinion, and having a tantrum ripping management when they made the correct decision economically. Lay out why you'd have done it....don't rail on the front office for doing what's prudent.


Don't confuse a column with Twitter. Interactions between people on Twitter can be a glorified bar conversation.

The person making such comments on Twitter is no different than the person penning the columns. The medium of communication does not matter; the author is the same in both instances and should be held accountable for all such writings.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Sanchez was looking like a pretty good prospect early on until he broke his jaw. Even if nobody admitted it, but it probably took him a good while to get comfortable hitting live pitching again.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
More than me, of course, but come on ... that is the lowest bar imaginable. :D


Ahh Bucfan. We all have our talents. I am particularly good at finding and buying bad scotch, for instance. And, no one my friend, no one... does a better job of draining the internet of all possible GIF file combinations.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:04 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Sanchez was looking like a pretty good prospect early on until he broke his jaw. Even if nobody admitted it, but it probably took him a good while to get comfortable hitting live pitching again.



If he's to be believed on Twitter, he didn't get full strength back until partway through last season. Was talking about it when Sid broke his jaw, although it did seem to conveniently coincide with his power surge.

Although, he did suffer 2 broken jaws so maybe that's truly the case.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:51 am 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Don't confuse a column with Twitter. Interactions between people on Twitter can be a glorified bar conversation.


Then he should shut the pie hole....these days it is basically the same for better or worse....


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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:44 pm 
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And, away we go. Can't let a good chat go by without the obligatory snark for the FO.

[url]http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejanchattranscripts/4270273-74/dejan-kovacevic-comment#axzz2X3Ndu0sl
[/url]
ZM

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:37 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
And, away we go. Can't let a good chat go by without the obligatory snark for the FO.

[url]http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejanchattranscripts/4270273-74/dejan-kovacevic-comment#axzz2X3Ndu0sl
[/url]
ZM


OK, now you are just nitpicking. I just read the entire chat and there is nothing damning about it. Come on.

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Yeah, I suppose. I mean, calling the FO "silly", "dumb", and "insecure" isn't snarky at all.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: DK Admits He Was Wrong About Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:19 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Wow. DK just can't win with you guys. You say he won't own up to a mistake, he does, and then you question his motivation.

The only part of the article dealing with the Pirates involved an unequivocal acknowledgement that he was wrong:

Martin is swinging well — .257 average, .356 on-base, eight home runs, including two huge hits in the astounding comeback Sunday in Anaheim — but his handling of baseball's most surprising pitching staff and of the opponents' running game has been nothing shy of masterful.

To date, he's been worth every penny.


That's clear. I don't see a lot of sportswriters penning columns in which they dig up a prior prediction and note that they were totally wrong. But hey, keep on hatin'. I still enjoy reading his columns and his blog, and he's still the best Pittsburgh sportswriter by a good margin.

He'll win with me when he writes a column admitting that his column comparing Huntington's minor league system unfavorably to Littlefield's was a mess of lies and half truths. Or maybe I'm nitpicking, because you would have to be a complete and utter moron to fail to see it for what it was.

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