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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:37 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:43 pm 
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U.S.S. Mariner had a great post about a similar situation that the M's are facing.

In their case it's Brendan Ryan and Roberto Andino clogging SS with Nick Franklin in the wings (and to a lesser extent Brad Miller and Carlos Trunfiel).

http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/05/02/on ... romotions/

Some interesting points were made by all parties (blogger and commenters).

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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:53 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
U.S.S. Mariner had a great post about a similar situation that the M's are facing.

In their case it's Brendan Ryan and Roberto Andino clogging SS with Nick Franklin in the wings (and to a lesser extent Brad Miller and Carlos Trunfiel).

http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/05/02/on ... romotions/

Some interesting points were made by all parties (blogger and commenters).


It's an apples to oranges comparison in two important respects.

First, the Pirates, unlike the Mariners, are in a position to compete for the playoffs in 2013. It may not be likely, but the Pirates have a much better shot than the Mariners and should therefore be making personnel moves based on improving team performance at the MLB level.

Second, there is no doubt that Jordy Mercer would, at this point, be best served by getting regular playing time at the MLB level. He's 26 years old and he hit well at AAA in both 2012 and 2013. The next logical step for this player is the Bucs' lineup. Nick Franklin is 22 years old and has less than 400 at-bats at AAA. He could benefit from seeing more pitchers and playing regularly at that level.

FREE JORDY MERCER.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:43 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
It's an apples to oranges comparison in two important respects.

First, the Pirates, unlike the Mariners, are in a position to compete for the playoffs in 2013. It may not be likely, but the Pirates have a much better shot than the Mariners and should therefore be making personnel moves based on improving team performance at the MLB level.

Second, there is no doubt that Jordy Mercer would, at this point, be best served by getting regular playing time at the MLB level. He's 26 years old and he hit well at AAA in both 2012 and 2013. The next logical step for this player is the Bucs' lineup. Nick Franklin is 22 years old and has less than 400 at-bats at AAA. He could benefit from seeing more pitchers and playing regularly at that level.

FREE JORDY MERCER.


I'm going to make that my new sig....


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am 
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val wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
It's an apples to oranges comparison in two important respects.

First, the Pirates, unlike the Mariners, are in a position to compete for the playoffs in 2013. It may not be likely, but the Pirates have a much better shot than the Mariners and should therefore be making personnel moves based on improving team performance at the MLB level.

Second, there is no doubt that Jordy Mercer would, at this point, be best served by getting regular playing time at the MLB level. He's 26 years old and he hit well at AAA in both 2012 and 2013. The next logical step for this player is the Bucs' lineup. Nick Franklin is 22 years old and has less than 400 at-bats at AAA. He could benefit from seeing more pitchers and playing regularly at that level.

FREE JORDY MERCER.


I'm going to make that my new sig....


That's a great sig hahaha. People need to make signs and take them to PNC Park.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:04 am 
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I agree!!!!!!!! 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:56 am 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
val wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
It's an apples to oranges comparison in two important respects.

First, the Pirates, unlike the Mariners, are in a position to compete for the playoffs in 2013. It may not be likely, but the Pirates have a much better shot than the Mariners and should therefore be making personnel moves based on improving team performance at the MLB level.

Second, there is no doubt that Jordy Mercer would, at this point, be best served by getting regular playing time at the MLB level. He's 26 years old and he hit well at AAA in both 2012 and 2013. The next logical step for this player is the Bucs' lineup. Nick Franklin is 22 years old and has less than 400 at-bats at AAA. He could benefit from seeing more pitchers and playing regularly at that level.

FREE JORDY MERCER.


I'm going to make that my new sig....


That's a great sig hahaha. People need to make signs and take them to PNC Park.


I used all my signage for my Free Matt Hague signs. Lets not get carried away with our Mercer expectations, he really isn't much of a prospect. Better than Barmes/McDonald, likely; actually good, unlikely.

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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Lets not get carried away with our Mercer expectations, he really isn't much of a prospect. Better than Barmes/McDonald, likely; actually good, unlikely.


No big expectations, but I think he could turn out to have a career along the same line as say, Neil Walker, who despite being drafted high also wasn't much of a prospect by the time he was called up. Neither are particularly flashy players (and most shortstops aren't), but if Mercer provides consistency and plus fielding as opposed to just the latte and a .600 or so OPS like the alternatives, I think that's pretty okay for this line-up.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:22 pm 
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If Mercer can hit .250 and actually draw walks he will be better than Barmes. That is all I would like to see, someone more productive than Barmes. Right now once you hit Pedro then Barmes then the Pitcher you have somewhat of a black hole 3 out of 4 weeks. The one week out of 4 Pedro will hit .400 with 3 HR's and then fade back into the black hole.

Sticking with a somewhat Pirate theme, Pedro is like the Kraken...he gets released once in a while to wreak some havoc but most the time he lays harmlessly at the oceans floor.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:25 pm 
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If Mercer can play decent defense and hit .240/.300/.325, he's a huge upgrade over 2013 Clint Barmes (.192/.241/.256) and a modest upgrade over 2012 Clint Barmes (.229/.272/.321). If allowed to settle in and play all season, I'd wager that Mercer could hit around .250/.320/.350.

Is he Jurickson Profar? No. But he's quite a bit better than the current alternatives.

FREE JORDY MERCER.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:31 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Lets not get carried away with our Mercer expectations, he really isn't much of a prospect. Better than Barmes/McDonald, likely; actually good, unlikely.


Backup QB Syndrome. Everyone's favorite player is the backup QB. And, with rare exception, the backup is usually a backup for numerous reasons.

Mercer's bat > Barmes' bat
Barmes' glove > Mercer's glove

You want offense? Go with Mercer. Defense? Go with Barmes. And, if you believe that your team is best suited by having a strong glove as SS, then it is entirely consistent with this theory to have a solid glove as a backup after you use a right handed pinch hitter to hit for Barmes in a key situation.

I'm just not sold that this team's success is going to hinge on Barmes' bat. I'm far more concerned about Alvarez getting on track, getting Walker back in the lineup, getting Tabata healthy and . . . have to get some better production out of any starting pitcher whose name isn't Burnett.

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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:35 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
val wrote:

I'm going to make that my new sig....



I used all my signage for my Free Matt Hague signs. Lets not get carried away with our Mercer expectations, he really isn't much of a prospect. Better than Barmes/McDonald, likely; actually good, unlikely.

I won't get carried away. But where we can improve on what we've got, we have to do it. We don't need two shortstops who are struggling to hit their weight.

No. 9 wrote:
Backup QB Syndrome. Everyone's favorite player is the backup QB. And, with rare exception, the backup is usually a backup for numerous reasons.

Mercer's bat > Barmes' bat
Barmes' glove > Mercer's glove

You want offense? Go with Mercer. Defense? Go with Barmes. And, if you believe that your team is best suited by having a strong glove as SS, then it is entirely consistent with this theory to have a solid glove as a backup after you use a right handed pinch hitter to hit for Barmes in a key situation.

I'm just not sold that this team's success is going to hinge on Barmes' bat. I'm far more concerned about Alvarez getting on track, getting Walker back in the lineup, getting Tabata healthy and . . . have to get some better production out of any starting pitcher whose name isn't Burnett.

I don't necessarily need Mercer to start. I'm OK with a defense-first SS, but two on the roster seems like overkill. Especially given that neither is the second coming of Ozzie Smith.

And I agree that Barmes' bat is not going to be the key to our success. But we are a marginal team, for all the reasons you stipulated, and teams on the margin have to improve where there is an option to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:44 pm 
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val wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
val wrote:

I'm going to make that my new sig....



I used all my signage for my Free Matt Hague signs. Lets not get carried away with our Mercer expectations, he really isn't much of a prospect. Better than Barmes/McDonald, likely; actually good, unlikely.

I won't get carried away. But where we can improve on what we've got, we have to do it. We don't need two shortstops who are struggling to hit their weight.


But is it a sure improvement? Everyone was convinced that Hague would hit ML pitching based on being an older mostly non-prospect who had good AA and AAA stats. I think he can hit enough (maybe approach .680 ops, which is a wRC+ of 75-80), but the earlier comp to Walker seems ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:

But is it a sure improvement? Everyone was convinced that Hague would hit ML pitching based on being an older mostly non-prospect who had good AA and AAA stats. I think he can hit enough (maybe approach .680 ops, which is a wRC+ of 75-80), but the earlier comp to Walker seems ridiculous.

No, of course not. But we know what we've got in Barmes, and I don't think he's good enough. Since we're not a particularly free-spending team, we have to use players in our minor league system, and, well, that would be Mercer. He deserves the chance to see if he belongs in the Show.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:50 pm 
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The Pirates can't afford to throw away money. That's why signing guys like Barmes and McDonald are a waste. They may not have been huge money signings, but still a waste when you have people in your own system who would be at worst equal and most likely an upgrade. The other thing is assuming Mercer won't be very good. The Pirates have had ample opportunity to FIND OUT about Mercer and have not. I get that if you think you have a World Series contender you may not want to "try out" a younger player you aren't entirely sure of. The Pirates are better, but not to a point where they should shun such methods.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:10 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
The Pirates can't afford to throw away money. That's why signing guys like Barmes and McDonald are a waste. They may not have been huge money signings, but still a waste when you have people in your own system who would be at worst equal and most likely an upgrade. The other thing is assuming Mercer won't be very good. The Pirates have had ample opportunity to FIND OUT about Mercer and have not. I get that if you think you have a World Series contender you may not want to "try out" a younger player you aren't entirely sure of. The Pirates are better, but not to a point where they should shun such methods.


PP, I agree with you fully, I've wanted to see Mercer play for weeks now, you know find out what you have before the trade deadline, crazy huh? I'm just poking holes in the sudden Mercer hysteria which makes me laugh considering the last large scale Free Player X outcry we just went through.

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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
But is it a sure improvement? Everyone was convinced that Hague would hit ML pitching based on being an older mostly non-prospect who had good AA and AAA stats. I think he can hit enough (maybe approach .680 ops, which is a wRC+ of 75-80), but the earlier comp to Walker seems ridiculous.


I don't know why you keep up bringing up Hague, that's a pointless comparison outside of the fact that both are not major prospects and hit well in the high minors. Nor do I think that "everyone" had a lot of faith in Hague, just an internet fan minority who thought giving him a chance might be a terrible gamble considering they barely had any options at first at the time. The reason it's a pointless comparison is the positions ... Hague was a first baseman who never hit for power, where as Mercer is a hitting shortstop with some pop and major league ready dense who could potentially fill a gaping black hole of a void given that neither of the current shortstops on the roster can hit at all. I don't think the comparison to Walker is ridiculous, but obviously it's optimistic. I do however think reducing Mercer's potential impact on a Hague-type scenario is ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:18 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Backup QB Syndrome. Everyone's favorite player is the backup QB. And, with rare exception, the backup is usually a backup for numerous reasons.


Sometimes. But fans generally clamor for the backup when the starter is awful. That's the case here as well.

No. 9 wrote:
Mercer's bat > Barmes' bat
Barmes' glove > Mercer's glove


That may be so, but by how much? Barmes' glove hasn't been as good in 2013 as it was in 2012. He's been inconsistent and made several key errors with men on base. I'm certainly willing to sacrifice some range for some better offense.

Last year, Barmes registered a -0.3 oWAR and a +2.1 dWAR. This year, he's already at -0.3 oWAR and +0.3 dWAR. That doesn't bode well for the year.

In limited time last year (42 games), Mercer registered a +0.5 dWAR. Sure, it's a small sample size, but he's shown he can man the position fairly well. And just watching his at-bats will tell you that he handles the stick more capably than Barmes.

No. 9 wrote:
You want offense? Go with Mercer. Defense? Go with Barmes. And, if you believe that your team is best suited by having a strong glove as SS, then it is entirely consistent with this theory to have a solid glove as a backup after you use a right handed pinch hitter to hit for Barmes in a key situation.


I want the BETTER OVERALL PLAYER. That appears to be Mercer. I believe the team is best suited by having the BETTER OVERALL PLAYER at shortstop. Why not release McDonald, give Mercer a shot at the every day shortstop gig, and keep Barmes as a late innings defensive replacement?

No. 9 wrote:
I'm just not sold that this team's success is going to hinge on Barmes' bat. I'm far more concerned about Alvarez getting on track, getting Walker back in the lineup, getting Tabata healthy and . . . have to get some better production out of any starting pitcher whose name isn't Burnett.


Just because it may not be the #1 issue facing the team doesn't mean it isn't an issue. And if Mercer could put up a .240/.300/.325 line, his offensive contribution will far outweigh whatever modest defensive shortcomings he may have. He should at least have a shot given Barmes' putrid start.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Exactly, the key evaluation is who you think will be the better overall player. Considering how low the bar has been set by Barmes, why not give Mercer a chance to improve on that?

Plus there's the timing thing. We need to give Mercer his shot now, so that we know what we're shopping for come July.


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 Post subject: Re: Jordy Mercer re-visited
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Where does the Barmes is a better fielder thought come from? Their fielding percentage is exactly the same. Sure, Mercer's number is in the minor leagues but that is the only place he has had a shot. Also, Mercer's fielding percentage has improved greatly from his early years in the minors into AAA.

Mercer MiLB career fielding percentage = .972.
Barmes MLB career fielding percentage = .971.


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