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 Post subject: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:17 pm 
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As expected, Gerritt Cole was just sent down to AAA. As expected, he grumbled about going down. As expected, Huntington said it wasn't about the service clock ticking, but about his readiness to compete at the ML level. As expected, the yinzers are screaming bloody murder about the cheap Nuttings and the idiot GM.

However, in my opinion (for what THAT'S worth!), this is absolutely the right move. While I do think Cole's clock was absolutely a great part of the decision-making, I also think he benefits from the starts at Indy to refine his game. Can he come up right now and survive? Yes. Can he come up right now and thrive? Probably. Can he come up and be as good as he possibly can be right now? Probably not. So, if Huntington wasn't completely forthright, big deal....show me a GM or business leader or politician who is and I will probably want to know what color the sky is in your world.

I think it is absolutely the right thing to trade 10 starts now for whole year later when he is in his prime. If Huntington doesn't want to own what most reasonable folks think is the smartest thing he could have done, then so be it. The hardest part of this will be if we struggle early while he dominates at Indy and everyone will be screaming for heads to roll.

This is the course we mostly all agree has to be followed by a small market team, and we shouldn't alter that philosophy just because we are closer to seeing some of the fruits of it.


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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:07 pm 
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It ain't the team's fault that this is the way arbitration clocks work. It's the smart decision.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:21 pm 
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People act like the Pirates are the only ones who do it.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:34 pm 
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It's not just the arbitration clock. Even a couple of weeks in AAA buys the Pirates a extra year of control, a couple of months buys an extra year before arbitration. It would be insane not to gain the extra year, at least, with a prospect of Cole's caliber.


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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Kovacevic wrote last week (or was it the week before?) that the prudent course was to send Cole to AAA. That any other move by Huntington would be something akin to wasting a year of Cole being a Pirate to some short sighted notion of "winning now." I am paraphrasing liberally . . .

We all know how much Kovacevic hates the front office - particularly Huntington and Coonelly. Indeed, I'm guessing that Huntington and Coonelly probably view him as Pirate Public Enemy #1.

I find it funny that the person who has done as much as anyone in the offseason to fire up the "yinzers" about this front office appears to be in full agreement with this strategy but yet the "yinzers" are screaming bloody murder. If the Pirates had kept Cole and inserted him into the rotation, it would have been portrayed as an ill-conceived desperate "Littlefieldesque" move by a GM who fears that his head is on the chopping block. And . . . guess what? . . . . the "yinzers" would have been all over Huntington for a stupid move.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:38 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
It ain't the team's fault that this is the way arbitration clocks work. It's the smart decision.


Its not even arbitration, its the whole extra year of service time that you get if you just send him down until mid-April. They just need to be sure he doesn't get 172 days so they have him this year + 6 instead of + 5. That part is really inarguable. You could make him the #5 SP and still send him down to start the year.


The arbitration stuff doesn't really matter as much with SP, you are better off using them when they are healthy. With the risk involved its hardly worth worrying about an extra $5 million in 3 years.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Yeah, it makes sense.

If Appel had been signed and/or if the Bucs hadn't signed 2 SP's and/or if they were in desperate need of an SP THEN maybe the move would be questionable.

As is, a par for the course Pirates current event [which nobody will remember in a few months when the Bucs are rolling!].

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
It ain't the team's fault that this is the way arbitration clocks work. It's the smart decision.


Its not even arbitration, its the whole extra year of service time that you get if you just send him down until mid-April. They just need to be sure he doesn't get 172 days so they have him this year + 6 instead of + 5. That part is really inarguable. You could make him the #5 SP and still send him down to start the year.


The arbitration stuff doesn't really matter as much with SP, you are better off using them when they are healthy. With the risk involved its hardly worth worrying about an extra $5 million in 3 years.



That's what I meant, I'm just not 100% solid with how this shizz works.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:52 pm 
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Bauer was rushed to the MLB and the results have been mixed so far, maybe even have hurt his development. I like sending Cole down, for developmental purposes only. Why is it so important to start him in the MLB this year? See how much he's grown since last season's AAA experiences, if he goes out and dominates AAA then we know he's ready by the break. With how bad our rotation is going to be, on top of how they will lack durability, it's not like he won't be getting his shot.


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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:32 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Kovacevic wrote last week (or was it the week before?) that the prudent course was to send Cole to AAA. That any other move by Huntington would be something akin to wasting a year of Cole being a Pirate to some short sighted notion of "winning now." I am paraphrasing liberally . . .

We all know how much Kovacevic hates the front office - particularly Huntington and Coonelly. Indeed, I'm guessing that Huntington and Coonelly probably view him as Pirate Public Enemy #1.

I find it funny that the person who has done as much as anyone in the offseason to fire up the "yinzers" about this front office appears to be in full agreement with this strategy but yet the "yinzers" are screaming bloody murder. If the Pirates had kept Cole and inserted him into the rotation, it would have been portrayed as an ill-conceived desperate "Littlefieldesque" move by a GM who fears that his head is on the chopping block. And . . . guess what? . . . . the "yinzers" would have been all over Huntington for a stupid move.


Don't worry. DK is still flailing away against the front office in other areas. See here: http://www.bucsdugout.com/2013/3/15/410 ... moderately. I'm completely in agreement with Wilmoth on this issue.


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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:47 pm 
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Agreed with that. Especially on Taillon, people need to relax about him. Cole is a much more polished product at this point, he was when we drafted him. Taillon was drafted on makeup, it was never about how fast we could get him to the MLB. Maybe if everything goes perfect for him in AA/AAA this year, we see him September, but I don't think it happens. Nor do I see a point to it. Give him a season in the minors while taking the handcuffs off and see how that K/9 improves.


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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:59 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Kovacevic wrote last week (or was it the week before?) that the prudent course was to send Cole to AAA. That any other move by Huntington would be something akin to wasting a year of Cole being a Pirate to some short sighted notion of "winning now." I am paraphrasing liberally . . .

We all know how much Kovacevic hates the front office - particularly Huntington and Coonelly. Indeed, I'm guessing that Huntington and Coonelly probably view him as Pirate Public Enemy #1.

I find it funny that the person who has done as much as anyone in the offseason to fire up the "yinzers" about this front office appears to be in full agreement with this strategy but yet the "yinzers" are screaming bloody murder. If the Pirates had kept Cole and inserted him into the rotation, it would have been portrayed as an ill-conceived desperate "Littlefieldesque" move by a GM who fears that his head is on the chopping block. And . . . guess what? . . . . the "yinzers" would have been all over Huntington for a stupid move.

There is no middle ground with the type of jackass fans we're talking about. They'll hail anybody who criticizes the front office, then call the same person Huntington's lackey if he agrees with the front office on anything. They're the type who get off on being critical. I've seen the same thing happen with the Penguins and even the Steelers. I was listening to a little talk radio today, and Ron Cook was trying to drum up calls about the Penguins, to no avail. Nobody wants to talk about them because they're on a winning streak, and there is nothing to complain about.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:00 pm 
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My deceased uncle (Corsair's Father) was fond of saying,

Anytime someone says "It's not about the money," It's about the money! :D


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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:03 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Yeah, it makes sense.

If Appel had been signed and/or if the Bucs hadn't signed 2 SP's and/or if they were in desperate need of an SP THEN maybe the move would be questionable.

Not really. I think that the only case that can be made for Cole starting the season with the Pirates is if you are CERTAIN that 2 or 3 more wins is the difference between winning the division and missing the playoffs. Anything short of that is no case at all. I think that bringing Cole north with the team at the end of spring training would have been a firing offense.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:07 pm 
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bradf wrote:
As expected, Gerritt Cole was just sent down to AAA. As expected, he grumbled about going down. As expected, Huntington said it wasn't about the service clock ticking, but about his readiness to compete at the ML level. As expected, the yinzers are screaming bloody murder about the cheap Nuttings and the idiot GM.

However, in my opinion (for what THAT'S worth!), this is absolutely the right move. While I do think Cole's clock was absolutely a great part of the decision-making, I also think he benefits from the starts at Indy to refine his game. Can he come up right now and survive? Yes. Can he come up right now and thrive? Probably. Can he come up and be as good as he possibly can be right now? Probably not. So, if Huntington wasn't completely forthright, big deal....show me a GM or business leader or politician who is and I will probably want to know what color the sky is in your world.

I think it is absolutely the right thing to trade 10 starts now for whole year later when he is in his prime. If Huntington doesn't want to own what most reasonable folks think is the smartest thing he could have done, then so be it. The hardest part of this will be if we struggle early while he dominates at Indy and everyone will be screaming for heads to roll.

I agree whole-heartedly with everything you said!


This is the course we mostly all agree has to be followed by a small market team, and we shouldn't alter that philosophy just because we are closer to seeing some of the fruits of it.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:09 pm 
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I agree 100%

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:06 pm 
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There really is no other choice. We all knew before ST started he would not start the season with the team. If they start poorly, people will bitch but it's still the only move. I hope for a good season and doubt missing a few starts will change that possibility. All smallmarket etams do that and must. Not to save money as much as having him for another year without question.

Next question!

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:33 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Yeah, it makes sense.

If Appel had been signed and/or if the Bucs hadn't signed 2 SP's and/or if they were in desperate need of an SP THEN maybe the move would be questionable.

Not really. I think that the only case that can be made for Cole starting the season with the Pirates is if you are CERTAIN that 2 or 3 more wins is the difference between winning the division and missing the playoffs. Anything short of that is no case at all. I think that bringing Cole north with the team at the end of spring training would have been a firing offense.


Pretty much. As you so eloquently explain in your post to #9, this is just the Yinzers being Yinzers.

All I was trying to propose was a situation where they might seem less... 'reactionary'.

Cole starting the season in Indy makes all the sense in the world for reasons any sane person should understand.

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:48 pm 
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It's exactly the right move. If you want to see it handled poorly, Google "Sabres send Grigerenko back to Juniors".

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 Post subject: Re: As expected.....
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:49 am 
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When the Bucs signed Karstens and Liriano, they gave themselves enough depth at the starting pitcher position to allow Cole to develop at AAA. If the team hadn't signed either of those guys, then it may have made sense to have Cole compete with McFear and Locke for a slot in the starting five. But as it is, the Pirates have some good options.


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