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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Lets go bucs.


Last edited by Charleston_Charlies on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:08 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
enjoying a Boddy's!


The cream of Manchester....... :lol: :lol:

Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Great posters like AZ quit posting here because of the repeatedly negative comments from people like you.


Chas. Charlie....it's ok...I installed a filter...in and out....good move...beat 'em bucs....


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:44 am 
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The point is, and always has been, the derivative military-style training that the Pirates forced prospects to go through. "Hell Week," they called it. Making prospects get up at 5:00 a.m. when they have a 10:00 a.m. game and make them jump over ice pools, carry small telephone poles along the beach, and slide into second base where a coach is waiting for them.

All of that is dumb, risky, and pointless. Anyone disagree? Anyone?

If it happens again, I believe that NH, Kyle Stark, and Larry Broadway could definitely be described as acting in an insubordinate fashion.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:10 pm 
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Don't worry JC, DK has a buddy in John Perotto who wrote a crap piece for our top 10 prospects at BA. He doesn't even mention any of our prospects until the end and does so flippantly. Kind of an "oh by the way, this system is very good and has several impact talents".

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Don't worry JC, DK has a buddy in John Perotto who wrote a crap piece for our top 10 prospects at BA. He doesn't even mention any of our prospects until the end and does so flippantly. Kind of an "oh by the way, this system is very good and has several impact talents".


I've read Perrotto's stuff at the BCT a while back. He was a very good writer and beat reporter back in the day. I have heard that his more recent stuff hasn't been as good, but I don't know first-hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:37 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The point is, and always has been, the derivative military-style training that the Pirates forced prospects to go through. "Hell Week," they called it. Making prospects get up at 5:00 a.m. when they have a 10:00 a.m. game and make them jump over ice pools, carry small telephone poles along the beach, and slide into second base where a coach is waiting for them.

All of that is dumb, risky, and pointless. Anyone disagree? Anyone?

If it happens again, I believe that NH, Kyle Stark, and Larry Broadway could definitely be described as acting in an insubordinate fashion.


JC -
You're citing what Kovacevic is now saying. Bottom line? It hasn't always been about Hell Week and the Hoka Hey mentality. That is where Kovacevic's current position evolved and morphed after his initial indignation. Polanco was allegedly injured/re-injured/aggravated his injury during the Navy Seals exercises. That was Kovacevic's big first issue and he was quite vocal about his opinion on the ridiculousness of the Pirates being engaged with the Seals. His righteous indignation with the Pirates and the Seals has fallen to the wayside and his claims are now that it has "always been" about Hell Week and Hoka Hey. Further, he decried the fact that NH and FC defended portions of what Kyle Stark was doing and referred to it as insubordination. He isn't claiming that, if those practices continue, it will be insubordination, he has accused them of past insubordination. Given Nutting's comments both at the time and just recently, it is more than evident that neither NH nor FC's past commentary comes close to insubordination. It was an overreach by Kovacevic and, IMO, driven by his current dislike of both FC and NH.

Again, that's just my $.02 on the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:40 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Don't worry JC, DK has a buddy in John Perotto who wrote a crap piece for our top 10 prospects at BA. He doesn't even mention any of our prospects until the end and does so flippantly. Kind of an "oh by the way, this system is very good and has several impact talents".


I've read Perrotto's stuff at the BCT a while back. He was a very good writer and beat reporter back in the day. I have heard that his more recent stuff hasn't been as good, but I don't know first-hand.

Perrotto's work used to be great, both at BCT and on Baseball Prospectus, up until he had a row with the Pirates media department. After that, his writing about the PBC has had a thick air of disdain.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:49 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
The point is, and always has been, the derivative military-style training that the Pirates forced prospects to go through. "Hell Week," they called it. Making prospects get up at 5:00 a.m. when they have a 10:00 a.m. game and make them jump over ice pools, carry small telephone poles along the beach, and slide into second base where a coach is waiting for them.

All of that is dumb, risky, and pointless. Anyone disagree? Anyone?

If it happens again, I believe that NH, Kyle Stark, and Larry Broadway could definitely be described as acting in an insubordinate fashion.


JC -
You're citing what Kovacevic is now saying. Bottom line? It hasn't always been about Hell Week and the Hoka Hey mentality. That is where Kovacevic's current position evolved and morphed after his initial indignation. Polanco was allegedly injured/re-injured/aggravated his injury during the Navy Seals exercises. That was Kovacevic's big first issue and he was quite vocal about his opinion on the ridiculousness of the Pirates being engaged with the Seals. His righteous indignation with the Pirates and the Seals has fallen to the wayside and his claims are now that it has "always been" about Hell Week and Hoka Hey. Further, he decried the fact that NH and FC defended portions of what Kyle Stark was doing and referred to it as insubordination. He isn't claiming that, if those practices continue, it will be insubordination, he has accused them of past insubordination. Given Nutting's comments both at the time and just recently, it is more than evident that neither NH nor FC's past commentary comes close to insubordination. It was an overreach by Kovacevic and, IMO, driven by his current dislike of both FC and NH.

Again, that's just my $.02 on the situation.


The situation was certainly fluid, but DK was relying on direct sources -- Jameson Taillon and Gregory Polanco's interpreter. He reported what they told him about the drills and conditions. The fact that the story morphed doesn't offend me in the slightest; stories will evolve, and reporters evolve with them.

What's funny to me is that no one here has answered my question -- does anyone think derivative military-style drills and "Hell Week" were good ideas? Does anyone think it would NOT be insubordination for Huntington, Stark, and Broadway to institute similar drills in 2013?

THAT is what matters. And I for one am very glad that DK brought this to light, because it means the end of derivative military-style training drills. Which is a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:09 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The situation was certainly fluid, but DK was relying on direct sources -- Jameson Taillon and Gregory Polanco's interpreter. He reported what they told him about the drills and conditions. The fact that the story morphed doesn't offend me in the slightest; stories will evolve, and reporters evolve with them.

What's funny to me is that no one here has answered my question -- does anyone think derivative military-style drills and "Hell Week" were good ideas? Does anyone think it would NOT be insubordination for Huntington, Stark, and Broadway to institute similar drills in 2013?

THAT is what matters. And I for one am very glad that DK brought this to light, because it means the end of derivative military-style training drills. Which is a good thing.

Umm, I did. I know that I don't post that much, but for the record, I don't have a problem with Navy SEALs training, both for the team-building and individual growth they can provide. I do have a problem with the team carrying on those practices because, done wrong, they can be detrimental. And to say we did it wrong would be flattering.

I'm confused, though, as to your ire at insubordination-that-hasn't-even-happened-yet. Do you think that Nutting has so lost control of his team that this is a concern for fans?


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:22 pm 
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Sorry, val. You did answer the question. So my post should read "no one other than val" has answered the larger (and more important) question.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:25 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
What's funny to me is that no one here has answered my question -- does anyone think derivative military-style drills and "Hell Week" were good ideas?


I have no problem with it in concept. Was it done properly? We will never know because we weren't there. That said, I think Kyle Stark should be fired for incompetence...not for the team building exercises... 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
What's funny to me is that no one here has answered my question -- does anyone think derivative military-style drills and "Hell Week" were good ideas?


I have no problem with it in concept. Was it done properly? We will never know because we weren't there. That said, I think Kyle Stark should be fired for incompetence...not for the team building exercises... 8-) 8-)


I agree with AZ on having no problem on the concept. As someone who has a background in wrestling, workouts like that put you in great shape and condition, mentally and physically. Mental conditioning is a result of the physical conditioning and it builds comradery with teammates going through the same workouts.
Bucfan has a son who wrestled and pitched in high school. I'm certain that he was the most conditioned player on that team.
I think this thing is being blown up a bit too much because it seems to me that baseball players are being coddled too much nowadays. I understand why it is, and that is why I like what Mike Maddux is doing in Texas. Remember when Nolan Ryan incorporated throwing footballs as a way to strengthen his arm?

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:09 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
What's funny to me is that no one here has answered my question -- does anyone think derivative military-style drills and "Hell Week" were good ideas? Does anyone think it would NOT be insubordination for Huntington, Stark, and Broadway to institute similar drills in 2013?

THAT is what matters. And I for one am very glad that DK brought this to light, because it means the end of derivative military-style training drills. Which is a good thing.


Please clarify.
What "derivative" military-style drills to which are you referring? Those associated with Hell Week or those utilzed by the Navy Seals?

To answer your question directly, I see little value in waking up players to go through midnight sliding drills. I have very little problem with players running through the sand carrying telephone polls or running through a small pool of icy water. From what I have previously read of Navy Seals-like training, the players are put through a very "lite" version of what real Seals endure and that some of those exercises include carrying telephone poles, rolling large tires end-to-end and running through icy water. And . . . unless I've missed something, I have read nothing to suggest that the Navy Seals training is a closed issue. When Nutting says that he thinks that "NH has it right" and that he sees real value in learning from the Navy Seals. If Huntington or Stark hires the Navy Seals again, then no . . . despite anyone's thoughts about whether it is stupid or justified . . . I don't believe that it would be insubordination. I also don't think that it was insubordination for FC or NH to answer questions directly about the program and potential benefits . . . notwithstanding claims that it was insubordination for them to refuse to demonize it.

As for the Hoka Hey email, its corny and, IMO, ill-thought. However, its clearly metaphorical. Despite efforts to portray it as literal, Pirates management doesn't want its players to be hippies or Hell's Angels. The email is a follow up to a presentation provided to the Pirates by a motivational speaker who utilized the same metaphors. Would I get anything out of that? Probably not. However, as I wrote before, give me a week and access to any one person's email account and I could likely dig up a number of poorly drafted and embarrassing emails. Having attended a number of events in which a motivational speaker has given presentations, I think that you'd find that metaphorical speech is quite commonplace in that industry. So . . . to that extent . . . the email neither bothers me nor does it inspire me. It is what it is. An ill-thought, corny motivational email which was not intended to be consumed by the general public. Do I want Gerrit Cole to pitch like a hippie Hell's Angel? Nope. But I do want him be a free enough spirit that he can dream of being among the best in the game. I also want him to be the anti-Kip Wells and have a nasty enough attitude to pitch inside and not back down from any hitter. I repeat . . . Stark's metaphors may be poor but I get where he was going with the email.

Finally, its not about the story evolving. Its about recreating history. Kovacevic's intial outrage involved the Navy Seals program. It then grew to involve the Hoka Hey email. It then grew to involve Hell Week. Then, after many stories arose of other sports programs successfully implementing the Navy Seals' program, suddenly it was "always about" Hoka Hey and Hell Week and the Navy Seals program was not the issue. That's where my beef lies. It was not "always" about Hoka Hey and Hell Week. That's revisionist history.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:09 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Sorry, val. You did answer the question. So my post should read "no one other than val" has answered the larger (and more important) question.

I believe I'm on the record multiple times as saying that nothing about this story is a big deal. That includes the training.

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