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 Post subject: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:37 pm 
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per Biertempfel.

In a win for single young women in Pittsburgh, the team's handsomeness factor skyrockets.

For baseball fans, the need for SP multiplies. I don't get this move, Karstens is better than what we can buy for $4 million. Maybe you take his $4 million and add Joel's $7 million and you get a quality SP. Outside of that I don't know how this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:39 pm 
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This piece from 4 weeks ago is decent - http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... nss-value/

Villanueva is often mentioned as a fit for us, he would be a nice replacement, although I'm not sure he's an upgrade, but rather a trade for strikeouts over control.

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:43 pm 
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OK more news (maybe) - Hanrahan to LA for Capuano as a structure is being discussed. If we get Capuano and a prospect I'm on board. Chris is signed for $6 million in 2013 and a $8 million mutual option for 2014. That would upgrade over Karstens. I wonder why NH couldn't find any trade partners to move Karstens as a cheap back end SP.

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
OK more news (maybe) - Hanrahan to LA for Capuano as a structure is being discussed. If we get Capuano and a prospect I'm on board. Chris is signed for $6 million in 2013 and a $8 million mutual option for 2014. That would upgrade over Karstens. I wonder why NH couldn't find any trade partners to move Karstens as a cheap back end SP.


After watching capuano all year, please, no. Please please please no.

His stats are solid, but I'm not buying in on him. If that's the best we can get for hanrahan, I might just be done with the bucs.


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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:58 pm 
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BBF wrote:
His stats are solid, but I'm not buying in on him.



I bet that's how a lot of teams view Hanrahan.

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:59 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
OK more news (maybe) - Hanrahan to LA for Capuano as a structure is being discussed. If we get Capuano and a prospect I'm on board. Chris is signed for $6 million in 2013 and a $8 million mutual option for 2014. That would upgrade over Karstens. I wonder why NH couldn't find any trade partners to move Karstens as a cheap back end SP.


After watching capuano all year, please, no. Please please please no.

His stats are solid, but I'm not buying in on him. If that's the best we can get for hanrahan, I might just be done with the bucs.


Really, please elaborate. I've liked Capuano for years, what's the beef?

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:22 pm 
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I'd hate to see Karstens go. He's been a great Pirate, and I think he has a lot more to offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Dumb move. Karstens for 120-150 innings is well worth the $3.8 million he would have received. Letting him go for nothing is just dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:42 pm 
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On it's basis I really disagree with the non-tendering of Karstens.

The off-season is so young however, with SP being the theoretical main target, that I'm not throwing in the towel that this might not seem obsolete by the time the season rolls around. Not extremely optimistic about that possibility either, but it looks like the rumors have already started filtering with Hanrahan being dangled on the market for SP (and likewise, the simultaneous push to retain Grilli).

*Note - it has now been reported by Huntington that they tried to work out a tender deal with Karstens as well as a trade and were unsuccessful.


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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:48 pm 
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The thing is, even if a SP is signed or traded for, that doesn't change the fact that Karstens represents solid value for $3.8 million. With the uncertainties surrounding James McDonald and the pure question marks represented by Jeff Locke and Kyle McPherson, Jeff Karstens was a known commodity who could provide 120-150 innings of solid work.


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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Side Note: I can't be objective about Chris Capuano. I went to college with the guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:34 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The thing is, even if a SP is signed or traded for, that doesn't change the fact that Karstens represents solid value for $3.8 million. With the uncertainties surrounding James McDonald and the pure question marks represented by Jeff Locke and Kyle McPherson, Jeff Karstens was a known commodity who could provide 120-150 innings of solid work.


Yes, it is a tad puzzling.

Plus, isn't Van De Hurk still on the roster? If so, WTF?!

Granted, this move almost certainly means another SP will be added (which is a must and a great thing).

This non-tender decision will have to be looked back upon when the dust settles on this offseason.

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:36 pm 
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Also, RE: Capuano:

Isn't he a tad long in the tooth? Didn't he have multiple arm surgeries? Isn't he just 'breaking out' after years of being a mid-rotation at best guy?

Hammer has issues, sure, but he's worth more than a journeyman SP.

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:40 am 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
BBF wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
OK more news (maybe) - Hanrahan to LA for Capuano as a structure is being discussed. If we get Capuano and a prospect I'm on board. Chris is signed for $6 million in 2013 and a $8 million mutual option for 2014. That would upgrade over Karstens. I wonder why NH couldn't find any trade partners to move Karstens as a cheap back end SP.


After watching capuano all year, please, no. Please please please no.

His stats are solid, but I'm not buying in on him. If that's the best we can get for hanrahan, I might just be done with the bucs.


Really, please elaborate. I've liked Capuano for years, what's the beef?


I've liked him too (drafted him last year in NL only league, you'll remember). But:

1. He's aging.
2. He's the definition of average these days.
3. He's a one year rental.

As for what I've seen, I've seen a pitcher give up a ton of long flyballs, and benefit from playing most of his games in Dodger Stadium, PETCO, and SF. Not sure if that is supported by his numbers (HR/FB, etc.) or not, just what I've seen from watching a ton of his starts this year. If he moves to Pittsburgh, I'd expect an ERA north of 4.5- which is right around where it was the previous year with the Mets. In fact, a few of my Dodger fan friends viewed him as an LA-Karstens. Of course, he had a higher K rate, but I think there are some similarities.

And for $6M- that's what we're going to trade our most valuable trading chip for?

No thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:30 am 
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BBF wrote:

I've liked him too (drafted him last year in NL only league, you'll remember). But:

1. He's aging.
2. He's the definition of average these days.
3. He's a one year rental.

As for what I've seen, I've seen a pitcher give up a ton of long flyballs, and benefit from playing most of his games in Dodger Stadium, PETCO, and SF. Not sure if that is supported by his numbers (HR/FB, etc.) or not, just what I've seen from watching a ton of his starts this year. If he moves to Pittsburgh, I'd expect an ERA north of 4.5- which is right around where it was the previous year with the Mets. In fact, a few of my Dodger fan friends viewed him as an LA-Karstens. Of course, he had a higher K rate, but I think there are some similarities.

And for $6M- that's what we're going to trade our most valuable trading chip for?

No thanks.

This is what I feared with trading Hanrahan. He isn't viewed as highly as we think. LA would be looking at him as a 7th inning guy, not a closer or even a true set up man. I'm not a fan of Capuano either, but he may be the type of guy we can expect in return for Hanrahan. Again though I don't get the team's logic. Let Karstens go and trade for Capuano. Is that not a wash as far as on field performance, while costing more money and losing one of your few trade chips? Eh....why question the logic of a successful guy like Huntington???


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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:55 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
This is what I feared with trading Hanrahan. He isn't viewed as highly as we think. LA would be looking at him as a 7th inning guy, not a closer or even a true set up man. I'm not a fan of Capuano either, but he may be the type of guy we can expect in return for Hanrahan. Again though I don't get the team's logic.


If this is the net gain in a trade, keep him. Seriously, I'd rather lose Hammer to free agency than pick up more journeyman garbage.

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:30 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Dumb move. Karstens for 120-150 innings is well worth the $3.8 million he would have received. Letting him go for nothing is just dumb.

He's only managed that in half of his professional seasons.

That being said, I would have tendered him. I have a feeling that the Bucs spent too much time focusing on his weaknesses at the expense of seeing how they could take advantage of his strengths. That's something that has happened here for a long time, no matter who was in charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Maybe they are putting a ton of faith in that Cole and Taillon will be in the rotation for a majority of next season? Maybe one of them gets a chance to start the year in the rotation out of Spring Training?

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Maybe the Giants would be interested in Hanrahan? They let Brian Wilson go into the Free Agent Market...

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 Post subject: Re: Karstens non-tendered
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:09 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Maybe they are putting a ton of faith in that Cole and Taillon will be in the rotation for a majority of next season? Maybe one of them gets a chance to start the year in the rotation out of Spring Training?

They have plenty of rotation options, but I would have kept Karstens as insurance. Sometimes rookies don't work out, and guys do get hurt.

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