Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:04 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5832
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
Every report I've read so far indicates that Russell Martin was "intrigued" by coming to play for a baseball team that included AJ Burnett and the Pirates' young talent. So much for the perception and stigma of "Hoka Hey." Media fueled hysteria, IMO.

As for Tony Sanchez . . . just because he was a #1 signing doesn't mean that he's ready to play. Did they "miss" on him? I don't know. I do know that the front office adopted a strategy that year to not pay huge money to potential draftees because they didn't see a Pedro Alvarez, Jameson Taillon, Garrett Cole or Mark Appel talent that year. By all accounts, he needs more time in Indianapolis. Thus, that is where he should be this year. For now . . time will be split between Martin and The Fort. If Sanchez proves himself ready, then he'll get moved up and the Bucs can try to move The Fort or Martin. Just because Martin is on the team doesn't mean that Sanchez will be relegated to Indy for a full 2 years. It may be ideal for him to be promoted next year and have him learn alongside Martin and then take over as the primary catcher in 2014 after splitting duties in 2013.

The Bucs had a need at C. A glaring need. Even though he is currently my favorite player on the team, I just don't see The Fort being a day in/day out producer. He's a great 2 out of 7 day catcher. So, they went out and got a C. They went out and obtained a catcher that was being courted by the Yankees and the Rangers. They went out and got a catcher who is among the best available catchers. And they spent "market" - at least how many would define "market" - money on him.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:19 am
Posts: 1508
I'm waiting for the day a guy with the last name Strawman joins the league.. would no doubt find a way into the Pirates organization.

Meanwhile what number will Martin wear next year? Can you guys see the Fort giving up his number 55 and how many starts would Mc Kendry get?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2247
Location: Naples, FL
Martin's BABIP was .222 last year. Unless he's just hitting dribblers, I'd expect that to go up a bit.

I do like that he's not Rod Barajas.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:56 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 3656
Location: Economy, PA
Right, the idea that this means that Sanchez will not be ready for at least 2 more years is misguided. It just means he's not ready now. Which a quick glance at the AAA stat sheet will tell you.

I don't know if there was any better option available, but this is better than I was expecting. Now let's go get a pitcher.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:01 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1446
Location: Eastern Shore
As has been mentioned, we needed a catcher. Martin's better than what we have. There weren't a whole lot of options in the catcher FA market anyway, so I'll take him. Plus:

Quote:
The signing reunites Martin with right-hander A.J. Burnett. The two played together with the Yankees in 2011 before Burnett was traded to Pittsburgh last spring.


If he can ease Burnett away from favoring Barajas, and possibly being unhappy with Rod gone, then that's a plus as well.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:10 pm
Posts: 2172
No. 9 wrote:
Every report I've read so far indicates that Russell Martin was "intrigued" by coming to play for a baseball team that included AJ Burnett and the Pirates' young talent. So much for the perception and stigma of "Hoka Hey." Media fueled hysteria, IMO.

As for Tony Sanchez . . . just because he was a #1 signing doesn't mean that he's ready to play. Did they "miss" on him? I don't know. I do know that the front office adopted a strategy that year to not pay huge money to potential draftees because they didn't see a Pedro Alvarez, Jameson Taillon, Garrett Cole or Mark Appel talent that year. By all accounts, he needs more time in Indianapolis. Thus, that is where he should be this year. For now . . time will be split between Martin and The Fort. If Sanchez proves himself ready, then he'll get moved up and the Bucs can try to move The Fort or Martin. Just because Martin is on the team doesn't mean that Sanchez will be relegated to Indy for a full 2 years. It may be ideal for him to be promoted next year and have him learn alongside Martin and then take over as the primary catcher in 2014 after splitting duties in 2013.

The Bucs had a need at C. A glaring need. Even though he is currently my favorite player on the team, I just don't see The Fort being a day in/day out producer. He's a great 2 out of 7 day catcher. So, they went out and got a C. They went out and obtained a catcher that was being courted by the Yankees and the Rangers. They went out and got a catcher who is among the best available catchers. And they spent "market" - at least how many would define "market" - money on him.

1. The Hoka Hey/laughingstock stuff would not make a difference with major league players. When most within the game are laughing at you and your methods and you've been losing for 20 straight years I wouldn't call that media hysteria.

2. Sanchez is 25 and was drafted fourth. He should be in Pittsburgh now. Thus I say he is a failure for our esteemed management team. Could that change? Sure. But the signs aren't good.

3. I agree there was a need for a catcher to team up with Fort. But a .211 hitter for 17 mill isn't a good investment of limited funds IMO.

My big gripe with NH and the gang is they have drafted high for 5 years and don't have nearly enough to show for it. His signings have been horrible at best. He has been hit or miss on trades, which most GM's are. I don't know if it is lack of skill, not wanting to part with ANY prospects, etc. but NH has not shown a willingness to make creative trades to bring in actual talent. So we are left arguing the merits of a .211 hitting, 5 years in decline catcher...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Umm, I said it was a failure of the system. My point is that all teams miss, having a coronary over the Pirates issues without doing any research into what other teams do is assanine. The Pirate fanbase is into this whole "we don't do everything perfect so fire everyone mentality". The best front offices make mistakes, constantly. Its important to consider opinion from outside the fanbase as a more accurate view of how the Pirates moves stack up in MLB context. Not fantasy land context where every pick pans out and every move works. You're statement that there "should be a lot more here" is completely without merit, show me how other teams are consistently getting more from their drafts in 2008-2010. The Pirates used a high risk high reward strategy, which most of us supported fully. Its disingenuous to cry foul now when the lottery tickets didn't hit.


Look WHERE the Pirates were drafting. Are you telling me that Greg Smith and Neal Huntington did a great job from 2008 to 2010? I can show you a lot of teams doing better with talent acquired from those drafts, most of whom didn't draft from the Pirates' privileged position.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
The 2009 draft, who did you want? I wanted Matt Purke, miss. Many wanted Aaron Crow, miss, Many wanted Grant Green, miss. You can't look back and pick the two HS arms that look good and pretend that we somehow would have nailed Wheeler and Miller.


This is a strawman argument. I don't get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to evaluate baseball talent. NH and the guys in his team do. And with the Pirates' draft position, they should have done a lot better. Their job is to draft good baseball players, develop them, and bring them to the Pirates so that the team can win. They are failing at that.


Tell me which teams are doing better.

Your argument is the fallacy of hindsight, mine is realistic.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
PirateParrot wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Every report I've read so far indicates that Russell Martin was "intrigued" by coming to play for a baseball team that included AJ Burnett and the Pirates' young talent. So much for the perception and stigma of "Hoka Hey." Media fueled hysteria, IMO.

As for Tony Sanchez . . . just because he was a #1 signing doesn't mean that he's ready to play. Did they "miss" on him? I don't know. I do know that the front office adopted a strategy that year to not pay huge money to potential draftees because they didn't see a Pedro Alvarez, Jameson Taillon, Garrett Cole or Mark Appel talent that year. By all accounts, he needs more time in Indianapolis. Thus, that is where he should be this year. For now . . time will be split between Martin and The Fort. If Sanchez proves himself ready, then he'll get moved up and the Bucs can try to move The Fort or Martin. Just because Martin is on the team doesn't mean that Sanchez will be relegated to Indy for a full 2 years. It may be ideal for him to be promoted next year and have him learn alongside Martin and then take over as the primary catcher in 2014 after splitting duties in 2013.

The Bucs had a need at C. A glaring need. Even though he is currently my favorite player on the team, I just don't see The Fort being a day in/day out producer. He's a great 2 out of 7 day catcher. So, they went out and got a C. They went out and obtained a catcher that was being courted by the Yankees and the Rangers. They went out and got a catcher who is among the best available catchers. And they spent "market" - at least how many would define "market" - money on him.

1. The Hoka Hey/laughingstock stuff would not make a difference with major league players. When most within the game are laughing at you and your methods and you've been losing for 20 straight years I wouldn't call that media hysteria.

2. Sanchez is 25 and was drafted fourth. He should be in Pittsburgh now. Thus I say he is a failure for our esteemed management team. Could that change? Sure. But the signs aren't good.

3. I agree there was a need for a catcher to team up with Fort. But a .211 hitter for 17 mill isn't a good investment of limited funds IMO.

My big gripe with NH and the gang is they have drafted high for 5 years and don't have nearly enough to show for it. His signings have been horrible at best. He has been hit or miss on trades, which most GM's are. I don't know if it is lack of skill, not wanting to part with ANY prospects, etc. but NH has not shown a willingness to make creative trades to bring in actual talent. So we are left arguing the merits of a .211 hitting, 5 years in decline catcher...


Again "don't have nearly enough to show for it", please define, what is enough, what is realistic, what have other teams gotten. JC is grouping the 2010 draft into this, that's Taillon's draft, an ace in a year would sure change the tally no?

It amazes me that we got the best player on the market for a clear position of need at a fair price and people are still upset?!

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5832
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
If Martin is "intrigued" by the young talent, then he must not be convinced that the magically destructive powers of "Hoka Hey" are real. And, if everyone else in the game considers the Pirates' organization to be a laughing stock, then why would Martin be "intrigued" by playing in Pittsburgh?

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
Another similar take to Jeff Sullivan's from BP's Sam Miller -

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... leid=19029

If you buy into framing runs (which are debatable in magnitude) its a big win, if not its an even deal.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:27 pm
Posts: 413
Location: Morgantown, WV, via Charleston, WV
No. 9 wrote:
The Bucs had a need at C. A glaring need. They went out and obtained a catcher that was being courted by the Yankees and the Rangers. They went out and got a catcher who is among the best available catchers. And they spent "market" - at least how many would define "market" - money on him.


I couldn't agree more. Very, very happy with this acquisition. Now, if Tabata can get his head out of his butt, we may have something going for next season. I can't wait!

Scott


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5118
Location: Washington, DC
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Tell me which teams are doing better.


Sure.

St. Louis Cardinals, Cincy Reds, San Francisco Giants, Arizona Diamondbacks, Washington Nationals, Atlanta Braves, Oakland As, Texas Rangers, Kansas City Royals, Toronto Blue Jays, Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Chicago White Sox, LA Angels.

That's just off the top of my head.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Your argument is the fallacy of hindsight, mine is realistic.


Nope. The Tony Sanchez pick was questionable and scrutinized WHEN IT WAS MADE.

The PBC's front office competes against other teams' front offices. And NH's front office, now in year six, has failed to get the major league team to the playoffs or put the farm system in the top tier. By doing neither, he's failed.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5118
Location: Washington, DC
Feel free to respond to this one at your leisure, BD...

Barrys Dopers wrote:
He also reported that the system isn't improved and is not good, both wrong.


Wrong. I've read numerous DK articles noting that the farm system is better than it was in 2007 when NH took over, but nearly good enough given the years of high draft picks and player development. And that's 100% correct.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
DK made a mountain out of a molehill and has been provided facts that the "SEAL" training was not SEAL training and the agency involved has worked with over 150 teams. He refuses to acknowledge his error.


No error at all. The agency worked with ZERO baseball teams. And it's not a "mountain out of a molehill" when baseball front offices, scouts, player agents and numerous other insider baseball people refer to the Pirates' player development system as a "laughingstock." Perception matters, Barrys Dopers, and it does not help the Pittsburgh Baseball Club when prospects are getting injured leaping into ice pools at 6:00 a.m.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
He also never proved anything about management lies regarding the subject.


Unless you believe both Gregory Polanco (through his interpreter) and Jameson Taillon lied, then you're wrong. The PBC told DK that no player was every hurt during these stupid military-style drills or during the pathetic "Hell Week" Kyle Stark initiated. Polanco and Taillon said otherwise. Why would they lie?

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Nutting also did not say to stop the military stuff, he said to focus on baseball, that's not vindication.


Can you read? Here's the statement:

“I believe that our primary responsibility is to develop baseball players to play baseball and win championships at PNC Park. We are not and we should not be a military organization. We should not run a boot-camp environment.

I bolded and italicized the relevant portion, in case you missed it again.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Being against the move is one thing, calling it idiocy and comparing it to Matt Morris is a entirely different thing.


He made clear that he wasn't comparing Russell to Morris; rather, he was comparing the motives behind those moves. DK believes that NH is on a short leash and that this move reeks of desperation. It's an opinion. I don't necessarily agree with it. But I do have a big problem with the move based on the fact that the Pirates selected a catcher with the #4 overall pick in the 2009 draft. If Greg Smith and Neal Huntington did a better job in the draft from 2008 to 2010, then the Pirates wouldn't need to take a $17 million gamble on a catcher in decline. That's my overarching point.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:47 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 5642
The problem with the TS thing is not just the time it might take to reap the rewards of the pick, but the domino effect of having to wait on (or missing entirely on) the pick.

If the Bucs had taken say... Brett Jackson, then it means that they might not have shelled out $$$ for Tabata and/or traded for Snider. That means that the $$$ used on JT could have been used elsewhere and/or Lincoln could have landed another piece of need (perhaps even Arencibia). Likewise, maybe if the Bucs had taken Wheeler then they take Machado instead of Taillon the next year?

If Russell Martin is the man---and may he prove to be!---then great. It's just that makes TS a wasted asset/commodity when the Pirates could have used a Drew Storen or (fill in the blank) type the last 2-3 years.

It's not quite Moskos/Wieters bad (and really, that's the still the biggest WTF, even over Bullington over Upton), but it's still disappointing.

Paint corners and pound HR's, Russ. And Godspeed, Tony.

But still, damn.

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:04 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:10 pm
Posts: 2172
Barrys Dopers wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Every report I've read so far indicates that Russell Martin was "intrigued" by coming to play for a baseball team that included AJ Burnett and the Pirates' young talent. So much for the perception and stigma of "Hoka Hey." Media fueled hysteria, IMO.

As for Tony Sanchez . . . just because he was a #1 signing doesn't mean that he's ready to play. Did they "miss" on him? I don't know. I do know that the front office adopted a strategy that year to not pay huge money to potential draftees because they didn't see a Pedro Alvarez, Jameson Taillon, Garrett Cole or Mark Appel talent that year. By all accounts, he needs more time in Indianapolis. Thus, that is where he should be this year. For now . . time will be split between Martin and The Fort. If Sanchez proves himself ready, then he'll get moved up and the Bucs can try to move The Fort or Martin. Just because Martin is on the team doesn't mean that Sanchez will be relegated to Indy for a full 2 years. It may be ideal for him to be promoted next year and have him learn alongside Martin and then take over as the primary catcher in 2014 after splitting duties in 2013.

The Bucs had a need at C. A glaring need. Even though he is currently my favorite player on the team, I just don't see The Fort being a day in/day out producer. He's a great 2 out of 7 day catcher. So, they went out and got a C. They went out and obtained a catcher that was being courted by the Yankees and the Rangers. They went out and got a catcher who is among the best available catchers. And they spent "market" - at least how many would define "market" - money on him.

1. The Hoka Hey/laughingstock stuff would not make a difference with major league players. When most within the game are laughing at you and your methods and you've been losing for 20 straight years I wouldn't call that media hysteria.

2. Sanchez is 25 and was drafted fourth. He should be in Pittsburgh now. Thus I say he is a failure for our esteemed management team. Could that change? Sure. But the signs aren't good.

3. I agree there was a need for a catcher to team up with Fort. But a .211 hitter for 17 mill isn't a good investment of limited funds IMO.

My big gripe with NH and the gang is they have drafted high for 5 years and don't have nearly enough to show for it. His signings have been horrible at best. He has been hit or miss on trades, which most GM's are. I don't know if it is lack of skill, not wanting to part with ANY prospects, etc. but NH has not shown a willingness to make creative trades to bring in actual talent. So we are left arguing the merits of a .211 hitting, 5 years in decline catcher...


Again "don't have nearly enough to show for it", please define, what is enough, what is realistic, what have other teams gotten. JC is grouping the 2010 draft into this, that's Taillon's draft, an ace in a year would sure change the tally no?

It amazes me that we got the best player on the market for a clear position of need at a fair price and people are still upset?!

C'mon...I'm ok with people thinking it was right to give NH another year. But don't bury your head in the sand... They drafted near the top plus paid over slot for a bunch of those high school guys to get them to sign. That was their big move(one that I'm fine with), but where is the pay off? Tell me where all of these gems are right now. He has Cole and Taillon...period. And you said wouldn't adding an ace make a difference? Well, of course...but picking where they did all those years, shouldn't he yield us at least that for heaven sake???

When there is nothing but crap in a particular year at a certain position it isn't a positive to say we got the best player available at that position. Which, IMO, was Napoli anyway. Again, I'm not saying Martin won't be an upgrade from "the slowest man alive"...I'm saying I'd rather see that money go elsewhere.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:16 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:10 pm
Posts: 2172
No. 9 wrote:
If Martin is "intrigued" by the young talent, then he must not be convinced that the magically destructive powers of "Hoka Hey" are real. And, if everyone else in the game considers the Pirates' organization to be a laughing stock, then why would Martin be "intrigued" by playing in Pittsburgh?

So you believed what you read in the article? Yet, you seem to think it is "hype" or "hysteria" from the media when they say others think the Pirates ways/organization is a laughingstock? I guess you have a selectivity in what you read and believe.

And, for the record, what did you think he would say upon signing? "I took the money...didn't care about their crappy organization." He had 17 million reasons to sign with the Pirates, and he SHOULD be intrigued...the PIrates do have young talent to build around. That is all separated from the imbeciles running the minor league system and shouldn't have an effect on MLB players looking to come here. Funny...you like to laugh off the "Hoka Hey" stuff with your comments as being over hyped, etc...yet the OWNER OF THE TEAM said that stuff was going to be stopped because it was wrong.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5446
Location: Pittsburgh
PirateParrot wrote:
I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).

Most development programs don't account for a guy taking a fastball to the face twice.

Maybe it's apparent to you that Sanchez is at least two years away, but it isn't apparent to me, and I doubt that the Pirates feel that way, either. Neither Martin nor McHenry has a no-trade clause, you know.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
PP, my head is not in the sand, I called for a change in front office too. To JC, you list a ton of teams that have won, but show me their draft productivity from 2008-2010, the time frame you listed. You also say we don't have a top quality system, I disagree, I wager we are indeed a top 10 system. My argument stems from unrealistic expectations that you guys seem to have. I would like to see actual evidence of failure at an unacceptable rate. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe NH and Co are doing worse than everyone else, but I don't think its true. I think they are doing an average job.

BTW, did you see Napoli get $39 million for 3 years today? Napoli is 31, can't catch, and is coming off a 2.0 WAR season. Are we still upset with Martin's contract?

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5118
Location: Washington, DC
Barrys Dopers wrote:
To JC, you list a ton of teams that have won, but show me their draft productivity from 2008-2010, the time frame you listed.


The Nats have an obvious edge, as do the Royals, and the Giants have infused their system with enough talent to obtain pieces through trades and back up their major league team with quality depth. Again, that's just off the top of my head.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
You also say we don't have a top quality system, I disagree, I wager we are indeed a top 10 system.


Wrong. I said we don't have a "top tier system." I don't consider being in the top 1/3 of baseball teams to be top tier. That would be top 5. And I believe that's where the Pirates should be after years of drafting at the top.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
My argument stems from unrealistic expectations that you guys seem to have. I would like to see actual evidence of failure at an unacceptable rate. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe NH and Co are doing worse than everyone else, but I don't think its true. I think they are doing an average job.


If you think they're doing "average," then you should agree they need to be replaced. "Average" shouldn't be good enough, especially for a team behind the financial 8-ball. The Pirates need a well above average front office to become consistently competitive.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
BTW, did you see Napoli get $39 million for 3 years today? Napoli is 31, can't catch, and is coming off a 2.0 WAR season. Are we still upset with Martin's contract?


One bad contract does not justify another bad contract. And to be clear, I don't think the Martin deal is awful in abstentia; rather, I think it's bad in the context of the Pirates' limited resources and lack of catching options in the minor leagues.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
To JC, you list a ton of teams that have won, but show me their draft productivity from 2008-2010, the time frame you listed.


The Nats have an obvious edge, as do the Royals, and the Giants have infused their system with enough talent to obtain pieces through trades and back up their major league team with quality depth. Again, that's just off the top of my head.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
You also say we don't have a top quality system, I disagree, I wager we are indeed a top 10 system.


Wrong. I said we don't have a "top tier system." I don't consider being in the top 1/3 of baseball teams to be top tier. That would be top 5. And I believe that's where the Pirates should be after years of drafting at the top.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
My argument stems from unrealistic expectations that you guys seem to have. I would like to see actual evidence of failure at an unacceptable rate. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe NH and Co are doing worse than everyone else, but I don't think its true. I think they are doing an average job.


If you think they're doing "average," then you should agree they need to be replaced. "Average" shouldn't be good enough, especially for a team behind the financial 8-ball. The Pirates need a well above average front office to become consistently competitive.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
BTW, did you see Napoli get $39 million for 3 years today? Napoli is 31, can't catch, and is coming off a 2.0 WAR season. Are we still upset with Martin's contract?


One bad contract does not justify another bad contract. And to be clear, I don't think the Martin deal is awful in abstentia; rather, I think it's bad in the context of the Pirates' limited resources and lack of catching options in the minor leagues.


I said I wanted them fired months ago, what do you want!

Again, you list teams, please show me that the Pirates draft productivity is in the bottom half of MLB. Its not about being 4th best, its about being terrible as you and DK suggest. BTW, the Pirates obtained enough talent to infuse blah blah blah with the Wandy trade.

Martin's contract is not a bad contract, there is no sane argument that it is. You are being biased by past history with this club. You talk about absentia, if Napoli's price is $13 million that sets the market, Martin is a better catcher and is cheaper. We have limited resources and we need to use those on our primary needs. If C and SP weren't our biggest needs, what was?! If the move precludes getting a SP then OK, but I don't think it does at all.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits