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 Post subject: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:05 am 
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http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/10 ... crazy.html

Food for thought.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Wow...what a surprise, Pirate Prospects support the organization.

I don't care about coach K or any other alleged legend having done this. I don't care who Tim "shill"Williams interviews. I don't want my baseball players doing SEAL training or going through "Hell week". It's not the place for either, and it is a waste of time.

As far as whether its a good thing, all I need to see is the backlash it has created both with our own players and from the baseball industry itself. All of that bad publicity after 20 straight losing seasons...no thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:20 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/10/the-real-story-on-the-navy-seal-training-isnt-as-crazy.html

Food for thought.


Tim did a nice job presenting actual researched facts to allow the reader to decide if there is value in this stuff. I still say the damage is probably done in the public eye.

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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:24 pm 
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If the Pirates should copy any franchise in baseball today, I would suggest they pattern themselves after the San Francisco Giants. What they do and don't do should be what the Pirates do and don't do...although spending money on quality FA players might be a stumbling block for the Pirates.

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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:39 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Wow...what a surprise, Pirate Prospects support the organization.

I don't care about coach K or any other alleged legend having done this. I don't care who Tim "shill"Williams interviews. I don't want my baseball players doing SEAL training or going through "Hell week". It's not the place for either, and it is a waste of time.

As far as whether its a good thing, all I need to see is the backlash it has created both with our own players and from the baseball industry itself. All of that bad publicity after 20 straight losing seasons...no thanks.


Tim does not say that these events were good or bad, just that they are overstated by you know who and he goes to lengths to present what actually was happening. I'd say that's good reporting, not being a shill. He does not defend management beyond letting the facts be known instead of the tactics being embraced by talk show/twitter journalism. Tim also outlines all the major issues that many of us have with management in his second article this morning. He has been as critical as just about anyone on this board.

If Tim is a shill then half the posters here are too. There are plenty of defensible, good actions that have been done by this front office. The world is grey, not black and white.

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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:52 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Wow...what a surprise, Pirate Prospects support the organization.

I don't care about coach K or any other alleged legend having done this. I don't care who Tim "shill"Williams interviews. I don't want my baseball players doing SEAL training or going through "Hell week". It's not the place for either, and it is a waste of time.

As far as whether its a good thing, all I need to see is the backlash it has created both with our own players and from the baseball industry itself. All of that bad publicity after 20 straight losing seasons...no thanks.


PP -
I would fully expect that the former Seals would fully defend their program. No doubt in my mind and I take their statements with a grain of salt. Just as I take any player agent's statement that his client was subjected to "abuse" by the Seals. Agents refer to multimillion dollar offers as "offensive." They are paid to advocate and to overexaggerate.

Go ahead and call Pirates Prospects a "shill."

These are the questions that I had when I first read Kovacevic's artice:
1. What were the actual drills?
2. What was the purpose of the drills?
3. Who is doing the complaining?
4. As there are always several sides to any issue, what is the Seals' response?
5. And . . . what is the Pirates' response?

None of them are unfair questions.
Kovacevic chose not to go into detail on numbers 1 and 2. When I posted those questions on his blog, they were deleted. I don't know why but they were. Draw your own conclusion.
I don't really expect an answer to number 3 regarding identity of the players, parents and/or agents. However, doesn't stop me from thinking that they should grow a pair. Comparable to the internet tough guy with the screen name BigMuscles who challenges you to a fight on a message board.
As for number 4, we now have the Seals' response along with actual identities.
As for number 5, we continue to wait.

if anyone really wanted to do a thorough investigation into all sides, the Seals would have been contacted. It is more than fair to ask why they weren't.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:29 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
I don't care about coach K or any other alleged legend having done this. I don't care who Tim "shill"Williams interviews. I don't want my baseball players doing SEAL training or going through "Hell week". It's not the place for either, and it is a waste of time.

As far as whether its a good thing, all I need to see is the backlash it has created both with our own players and from the baseball industry itself. All of that bad publicity after 20 straight losing seasons...no thanks.

I do care what Coach K, in this instance, would say. He's pretty good at building a team of kids, pretty much the same ages as our guys, into a team that wins. And he took over a depleted program -- not 20 years bad, but 7 years bad (which is an eternity in college hoops) -- and built a winning program. Whether something like this can contribute depends, like everything else in sport, on its execution. I've seen enough of the Pirate Organization to know that we don't do the details very well, so you may very be correct in stating that this is a waste of time. However, in and of itself, I don't think 3 days trying something new, something that has worked for lots of programs, is a waste.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Navy SEAL training should be done by future Navy SEALS...period. This is typical Pirates. They don't/haven't produced enough talented players, so instead of trying to improve their player development process they do some extreme "tough guy" training to improve team bonding. Please....

As for Williams and Pirate Prospects, the only reason he looked into this was to defend the organization.

DK sometimes has an agenda. He sometimes lets his righteous attitude affect his responses to criticism. His emotions for his team and city sometimes cloud his commentary. But newspapers pay guys like him to uncover stories like this. I personally don't care that he didn't get the SEALS opinion. The point is that they are suppose to be developing ball players, not SEALS. and I would imagine any player in any system would balk at such drills...BECAUSE THEY SIGNED UP TO PLAY BASEBALL! It has nothing to do with growing a pair.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:44 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Navy SEAL training should be done by future Navy SEALS...period. This is typical Pirates. They don't/haven't produced enough talented players, so instead of trying to improve their player development process they do some extreme "tough guy" training to improve team bonding. Please....

As for Williams and Pirate Prospects, the only reason he looked into this was to defend the organization.

DK sometimes has an agenda. He sometimes lets his righteous attitude affect his responses to criticism. His emotions for his team and city sometimes cloud his commentary. But newspapers pay guys like him to uncover stories like this. I personally don't care that he didn't get the SEALS opinion. The point is that they are suppose to be developing ball players, not SEALS. and I would imagine any player in any system would balk at such drills...BECAUSE THEY SIGNED UP TO PLAY BASEBALL! It has nothing to do with growing a pair.


I don't know, throw out the machismo and I thought Tim's article does a nice job discussing the purpose of the exercises (which are NOT SEAL training). The goal is to teach performance when you are personally distressed, that's not a bad life tool.

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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Tim does a nice job covering the story but he's accusing others of exagerration and does the exact same thing himself. Example:

"When the story first came out about the Pirates going through this training, many people read it as the Pirates going through training to try and turn their players into Navy SEALs. The focus of the training isn’t to create Navy SEALs, and the training isn’t exactly like the training that one would go through to become a Navy SEAL."

Seriously? Nobody would have this viewpoint. That's ridiculous.

Apparently this company has only one other client among major professionaly sports teams, that being the Buffalo Sabres.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:58 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Apparently this company has only one other client among major professionaly sports teams, that being the Buffalo Sabres.


Crap, now the Bucs are associated with Buffalo sports. They'll never win now.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Tim did a nice job presenting actual researched facts to allow the reader to decide if there is value in this stuff. I still say the damage is probably done in the public eye.

I don't have a huge problem with the seals training, in it of itself. The leaked email from Kyle Stark, on the other hand, plus the fact that the development leadership in the organization has little experience, makes me think that the Pirates are run by a bunch of lunatics. And I admit that this colors my perception of everything related to the Bucs.

I now have a reason to explain why our development appears to be worse than it should, given our above-slot spending and excellent draft position for many years. I now question Huntington's common sense, because someone who hires and stands by unqualified people must have faulty judgement.

I can't definitively say whether any of this is true, but I can say that it negatively affects my opinion of the Bucs, and makes me want to root for them less.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:28 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Apparently this company has only one other client among major professionaly sports teams, that being the Buffalo Sabres.

The trainning makes sense for an NHL team ... if the ice melts, that Seal training is going to come in handy BIG-TIME.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:28 pm 
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The negativity that has overcome this board over the past 3 months has really been disappointing. I, for one, appreciated Tim Williams' article and thought he did a good job of researching information. Team-building exercises are important to an organization, and I applaud the Pirates for thinking outside of the box. I think DK has a bone to pick with the Pirates since he changed jobs, and I'd like to know what the real story is behind his suddenly vehement writings this season. I think there are too many new fans that had unrealistic expectations for this season, and since they didn't get what they expected, demand accountability from a Management Team that has only been in place for a few years. And I think there are some younger posters here who make inappropriate posts just because they want to bitch and argue.

See you after the Rule 5 Draft on December 6th. Maybe then we can have something productive to talk about, and perhaps some optimism on next season.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:13 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
The negativity that has overcome this board over the past 3 months has really been disappointing. I, for one, appreciated Tim Williams' article and thought he did a good job of researching information. Team-building exercises are important to an organization, and I applaud the Pirates for thinking outside of the box. I think DK has a bone to pick with the Pirates since he changed jobs, and I'd like to know what the real story is behind his suddenly vehement writings this season. I think there are too many new fans that had unrealistic expectations for this season, and since they didn't get what they expected, demand accountability from a Management Team that has only been in place for a few years. And I think there are some younger posters here who make inappropriate posts just because they want to bitch and argue.

See you after the Rule 5 Draft on December 6th. Maybe then we can have something productive to talk about, and perhaps some optimism on next season.

First, I am 46 years old and have been a Pirate fan since the mid 70's when I was old enough to kind of understand the game. I am a fanatic. I live and breath with my teams. I've aged enough that the losing doesn't make me want to put my fist through the wall...but it still bugs me. I've been told by my 7 year old that "the players are in the TV...they can't hear you". So I am unfortunately not young, new, or any of that stuff...

I am ok with some saying they don't think the SEAL training is a big deal. I'm not sure in and of itself it is a "big deal". I personally don't think it has any place in a baseball organization. Apparently many, if not all, with other organizations agree. Most here seem to have tired of DK and his writing. I understand for reasons I have stated above. However, it's as if some are insinuating he made some of this up because he had a bone to pick with the team. That is ridiculous. Because he didn't list the names and addresses of the players, parents, and other baseball people doesn't mean he made it up. Whatever you think of him, and his writing, I am pretty sure he has too much integrity for his job to do that. So based on his findings, it appears that this organization has become a laughingstock throughout baseball...something we can't afford.

I feel the opposite of you...I am surprised that so many here are "okay" with the stuff they are doing. Our player development absolutely blows! And this lunacy that is taking place just underscores why this management team needs replaced. And they haven't been in place for a "few" years, it has been 5 years. And there is nowhere near 5 years worth of progress shown with this organization...not at the major league level, nor the minor league level. This SEAL stuff just put the cherry on top for me. I personally think they need to all go...NOW.


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:51 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
And they haven't been in place for a "few" years, it has been 5 years. A


Disagree. Clint Hurdle has been the Manager for only 2 full seasons. Several of the scouts, minor league coaches, developmental guys have only been with the system for a few years. I am also 46 and a life-long Pirate fan, so I think people of our age have been patient. But I also think that we can be appropriate with expressing our frustrations.

The team-building exercises are being over blown by a disgruntled "former" beat writer. The younger fans haven't been through what we've been through and aren't old enough to understand patience.

I respectfully appreciate your response, and fully understand everyone's frustration. I just hope we can all be civil (which you seem to be) when moving forward with our Buccos. Next season is going to be a great one. I just feel it!


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 Post subject: Re: More leisure reading . . .
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
The younger fans haven't been through what we've been through and aren't old enough to understand patience.


I may be a 'younger fan', but I've been one since 92-93. And Axl Rose taught me all I need to know about "Patience":



;) :D

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