Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:03 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
Courtesy of the Mike Trout vs. Miguel Cabrera raging MVP debate, BP published this -

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... leid=18511

For those not aware, there is a old school vs new school firestorm over the AL MVP. Cabrera with his terrible defense and triple crown bat vs. Mike Trout who is superb in CF and has phenomenal all around numbers. Trout crushes Miggy in WAR (by more than 3 wins) so the SABR folks have there hair up about the possibility that Miggy could win.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:20 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:50 pm
Posts: 756
Great debate between Miggy and Trout. The fact that Miggy could accomplish something that hasn't been done in 40 years and only been accomplished 16 times overall could trump Trout's outstanding year.

Interestingly, I hear a lot of people talk about Miggy being on a playoff team and not Trout; however the Angels are two games better than the Tigers.

Fair or not, it will come down to whether Miggy can pull off the Triple Crown. If he misses it, even by one HR or .001 in the batting race...Trout gets the MVP; otherwise, it's all Miggy.

On a side note, I embrace the idea and purpose of WAR, but don't think that it is the end-all-save-all statistically metric...for God's sake, it still says Clint Barmes is a better than average (WAR of 1.3!!!)


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
Chris Anderson wrote:
Great debate between Miggy and Trout. The fact that Miggy could accomplish something that hasn't been done in 40 years and only been accomplished 16 times overall could trump Trout's outstanding year.

Interestingly, I hear a lot of people talk about Miggy being on a playoff team and not Trout; however the Angels are two games better than the Tigers.

Fair or not, it will come down to whether Miggy can pull off the Triple Crown. If he misses it, even by one HR or .001 in the batting race...Trout gets the MVP; otherwise, it's all Miggy.

On a side note, I embrace the idea and purpose of WAR, but don't think that it is the end-all-save-all statistically metric...for God's sake, it still says Clint Barmes is a better than average (WAR of 1.3!!!)


Better than replacement, not better than average. An average MLB starter is 2.0 WAR. That said fangraphs has him at 1.7 WAR based on his league 2nd best UZR.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:52 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 3655
Location: Economy, PA
Thanks. Before reading that I understood the concept that it was supposed to be all measurements condensed into one number, but I didn't understand the concepts behind the calculations or even the true concept of what a replacement player is. Now I get it.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:27 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 2575
If I were voting, it would have to have something to do with paying one's dues. How do you give the MVP in one's rookie year? I know it's been done (Fernando Valenzuela), but I don't agree with it.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:54 pm
Posts: 941
doug frobel wrote:
If I were voting, it would have to have something to do with paying one's dues. How do you give the MVP in one's rookie year? I know it's been done (Fernando Valenzuela), but I don't agree with it.

Please. The only dues MCab has paid were court-ordered.

_________________
I woke up with a clown's hand in my pants. That's what I did today.

Small ball is the hobgoblin of small minds.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
doug frobel wrote:
If I were voting, it would have to have something to do with paying one's dues. How do you give the MVP in one's rookie year? I know it's been done (Fernando Valenzuela), but I don't agree with it.

If Trout is the most valuable player in the league, then rookie or not, he should get the MVP award. "Dues" do not win baseball games. The only people that care about "paying one's dues" are the cartel of players who don't like young players getting recognized and compensated more than old players. You might know them as the MLBPA.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:40 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 2575
Just have a fundemental problem with young whipper snappers receiving the top honors in an industry right off the bat. I mean, what does he do for an encor? Other than a WS, what's left to play for?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:54 pm
Posts: 941
Who says he has to do anything for an encore? The MVP is awarded for single-season achievement, not for a body of work.

Quibble all you like over traditional counting stats vs. sabremetrics, but when age-ism creeps into it, my bullshit detector goes off.

_________________
I woke up with a clown's hand in my pants. That's what I did today.

Small ball is the hobgoblin of small minds.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:04 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Eastern Shore
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Courtesy of the Mike Trout vs. Miguel Cabrera raging MVP debate, BP published this -

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... leid=18511

For those not aware, there is a old school vs new school firestorm over the AL MVP. Cabrera with his terrible defense and triple crown bat vs. Mike Trout who is superb in CF and has phenomenal all around numbers. Trout crushes Miggy in WAR (by more than 3 wins) so the SABR folks have there hair up about the possibility that Miggy could win.

I started reading Bill James over 30 years ago. I'm trying to make sense of statistics and soccer. But there is nothing funnier than preening SABR geeks with their knickers in a twist. For that reason alone, I hope Cabrera wins the MVP.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:32 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Eastern Shore
And midway through tonight's game, Cabrera has two more hits, raising his average to .331, and has two more RBIs. Apparently, some people have thought that Cabrera should take a day of rest. :shock:


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:45 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 2575
One more deep one should just about do it.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:54 pm
Posts: 941
doug frobel wrote:
One more deep one should just about do it.

Yes, one more Deep One. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Image

_________________
I woke up with a clown's hand in my pants. That's what I did today.

Small ball is the hobgoblin of small minds.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:36 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
doug frobel wrote:
Just have a fundemental problem with young whipper snappers receiving the top honors in an industry right off the bat. I mean, what does he do for an encor? Other than a WS, what's left to play for?

Who cares what he does for an encore? What matters is what he has done this season. That's the criterion for which the MVP award is given.

Cabrera is not even the most valuable player on his own team. Why should he get the award?

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:57 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:50 pm
Posts: 756
Willton wrote:
Cabrera is not even the most valuable player on his own team. Why should he get the award?



Because the people who vote for these types of awards are "old school". Popularity over production. It's the same reason why Derek Jeter wins Gold Gloves.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:03 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Chris Anderson wrote:
Willton wrote:
Cabrera is not even the most valuable player on his own team. Why should he get the award?



Because the people who vote for these types of awards are "old school". Popularity over production. It's the same reason why Derek Jeter wins Gold Gloves.

I know that there is no justice in baseball, but if there was, Trout would win the AL MVP.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:32 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:50 pm
Posts: 756
Willton wrote:
I know that there is no justice in baseball, but if there was, Trout would win the AL MVP.


True, but if you are going to lose out...losing to the first Triple Crown winner in 40 years probably is the only palatable way.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: A Nice Easy to Follow WAR Breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:23 am 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Naples, FL
You know how much the old school types hate defense!

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits