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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:45 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.


I respectfully disagree. This isn't football/ basketball/ tennis/ lacrosse/ track/ etc. In baseball, a Manager's gametime decisions can indeed get you 5 extra wins or 5 extra losses. Pitching changes, hitting situations, etc. can definitely factor in a win or loss.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.


I respectfully disagree. This isn't football/ basketball/ tennis/ lacrosse/ track/ etc. In baseball, a Manager's gametime decisions can indeed get you 5 extra wins or 5 extra losses. Pitching changes, hitting situations, etc. can definitely factor in a win or loss.


Don't forget "illogical attachment to light hitting, old and washed-up SS and C's" That definitely affected some games this year.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:30 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:

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I get what you're going for, but I think its not that simple. No one is going to hand CH the Yankees or Red Sox roster. Sure talent is the primary factor, a loyt of talent trumps bad managing and no talent trumps good managing. Where a manager matters is in between when you have OK talent. The Bucs will be in the OK talent range for the near future and a manager that can get us 5 extra wins is valuable.

The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.



5 wins is exactly what most people say a manager can effect with strategy. You really think that is far fetched with all the control over lineups, bullpen usage, in game decisions?

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Hurdle has a lot to do with managing the running game, especially our own stolen base attempts, and we are atrocious in that area.

We lead all of baseball in caught stealing and are last in stolen base percentage.

We have also allowed the most stolen bases of any team in the majors and are last in caught stealing so obviously we are also worst at preventing the stolen base in terms of percentage.

The numbers are atrocious and unacceptable and are a big reason why we lost so many games.

And I know that only part of the blame falls on Hurdle so it's not necessary to make that argument.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.


I respectfully disagree. This isn't football/ basketball/ tennis/ lacrosse/ track/ etc. In baseball, a Manager's gametime decisions can indeed get you 5 extra wins or 5 extra losses. Pitching changes, hitting situations, etc. can definitely factor in a win or loss.

Don't agree at all. A huge percentage of the decisions made by the manager are by the book, no brainers that almost every manager would have made.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:42 am 
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I think a manager can lose games much more easily than he can win them. Maybe he either loses games or doesn't-lose games. And I think Hurdle lost some games.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:26 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I think a manager can lose games much more easily than he can win them. Maybe he either loses games or doesn't-lose games. And I think Hurdle lost some games.

Agreed 100%. Most managers would improve their teams' records by merely letting the players play and not trying to put their friggin' stamp on each and every game.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:22 am 
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How about accountability for players? As in, Andrew McCutchen had a great year the season before this, but Andrew McCutchen still was not satisfied. So Andrew McCutchen went out in the off season and tinkered with his swing, found his weak spots, and came back a stronger player this year. The results were an MVP-like season. Maybe Pedro Alvarez or Starling Marte can take a cue from this?

There were definitely some bad coaching moves this year though, and we REALLY need someone to come in here and show these guys how to run the bases. There's too much speed to be that bad. Look what the Orioles and A's did this year in the AL, and I don't think either team has that much stronger of a roster than us. The Pirates certainly could have won 85-90 games this year. If you just look at the series they SHOULD have won 2-3 games in after the break, like against the Cubs, Pads, etc, there's so many wins left on the table.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Steelcurtain512 wrote:
As in, Andrew McCutchen had a great year the season before this, but Andrew McCutchen still was not satisfied. So Andrew McCutchen went out in the off season and tinkered with his swing, found his weak spots, and came back a stronger player this year. The results were an MVP-like season. Maybe Pedro Alvarez or Starling Marte can take a cue from this?


And/or Jose Tabata, maybe even Travis Snider. Agreed to the utmost.

This team obviously has potential energy and (1st half) chemistry, now all they need to do is prepare and work until they turn that potential and chemistry into consistent chemistry/energy .

Steelcurtain512 wrote:
The Pirates certainly could have won 85-90 games this year. If you just look at the series they SHOULD have won 2-3 games in after the break, like against the Cubs, Pads, etc, there's so many wins left on the table.


Agreed here, too. All well said.

The FO has it's question marks, but the players can still do what's best by them and progress without a 'perfect' FO.

The next step(s) forward are going to have to be a collective effort, but everyone is going to have to give individual effort, as part of the whole.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:04 am 
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There was little question about Russell needing to go. Same is true of Tracy. When seen through that perspective Hurdle is golden. No, he has need for improvement but has my vote to stay.

Biggest problem in my mind is being overly loyal to older player at SS and C who hurt the team and played game after game without producing. That was sickening. Another major need is improvement in our base running. We started this year talking about running alot but were lousy at it. Something happened with SP after the break. Need to get that right next year.

It has been enjoyable watching the competetiveness of our team especially starting pitchers until the last months. So, he has raised the expectations of fans and fallen short of finishing the job. There is every reason to be hopeful that next year will show further development of our younger guys and with some additions at SP, SS, and C we could be on our way(don't forget the two superstuds coming soon to pitch).

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
There was little question about Russell needing to go. Same is true of Tracy. When seen through that perspective Hurdle is golden. No, he has need for improvement but has my vote to stay.

Biggest problem in my mind is being overly loyal to older player at SS and C who hurt the team and played game after game without producing. That was sickening. Another major need is improvement in our base running. We started this year talking about running alot but were lousy at it. Something happened with SP after the break. Need to get that right next year.

It has been enjoyable watching the competetiveness of our team especially starting pitchers until the last months. So, he has raised the expectations of fans and fallen short of finishing the job. There is every reason to be hopeful that next year will show further development of our younger guys and with some additions at SP, SS, and C we could be on our way(don't forget the two superstuds coming soon to pitch).


The older player at SS was/is easily our best option at SS.

I'll give you Barajas, but are you going to tell AJ he can't throw to him in the middle of his resurgent season?

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