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 Post subject: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:28 am 
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I was at the game tonight. It is getting to be so much more fun at games! Anyway, when Hurdle PH Harrison for Jones, I was livid. Screw the lefty-righty thing.... Jones could win the game with one swing of the bat!

LOL

But then I wondered why not Gaby Sanchez>?? FOr those of you watching at home or listening, was there a reason given why Gaby did not PH?

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:49 am 
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I don't think they made a comment on it that I remember...certainly no second guess comment...


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:30 am 
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Harrison's been pretty hot lately and gives you a speedy winning run if he gets on, I had no problem with the choice and I don't think anybody else said anything either. The question on here was why not PH Gaby Sanchez for Pedro in the 8th, Gaby over Harrison didn't seem to come up.

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:02 am 
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In the post game Hurdle said he went with Harrison because it was leading off the inning and he wanted a little speed on the bases if he got a hit. Hurdle was funny...he said he had two "wait a minute" moments...one when they loaded the bases in the 8th and didn't score, he looked and said "wait a minute". Then when he saw Harrison's ball go over the fence he said "wait a minute"...


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:17 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Harrison's been pretty hot lately and gives you a speedy winning run if he gets on, I had no problem with the choice and I don't think anybody else said anything either. The question on here was why not PH Gaby Sanchez for Pedro in the 8th, Gaby over Harrison didn't seem to come up.


We all know about Pedro's strengths and his weaknesses. But he is among the league leaders in HR and RBI. I want him batting in ANY situation. I would never PH for him. Ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:43 am 
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Animal wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Harrison's been pretty hot lately and gives you a speedy winning run if he gets on, I had no problem with the choice and I don't think anybody else said anything either. The question on here was why not PH Gaby Sanchez for Pedro in the 8th, Gaby over Harrison didn't seem to come up.


We all know about Pedro's strengths and his weaknesses. But he is among the league leaders in HR and RBI. I want him batting in ANY situation. I would never PH for him. Ever.


Here are Pedro's numbers against LHP this season and then career:

.217/.278/.348 with 40 Ks in 89 at-bats (only 18 RBIs and 3 HRs)
.210/.280/.352 with 163 Ks in 381 at-bats (only 12 total HRs)


Here are Gaby's numbers against LHP this season and then career:

.324/.442/.577 with 11 Ks in 71 at-bats (4 HRs)
.297/.394/.499 with 71 Ks in 445 at-bats (19 HRs)


This is not a difficult decision. Even if you consider Pedro to be having a breakout season, he's put up an OPS of .626 against LHP. Meanwhile, Gaby has absolutely crushed LHP throughout his career and even moreso this season.

The numbers don't lie.


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:52 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Animal wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Harrison's been pretty hot lately and gives you a speedy winning run if he gets on, I had no problem with the choice and I don't think anybody else said anything either. The question on here was why not PH Gaby Sanchez for Pedro in the 8th, Gaby over Harrison didn't seem to come up.


We all know about Pedro's strengths and his weaknesses. But he is among the league leaders in HR and RBI. I want him batting in ANY situation. I would never PH for him. Ever.


Here are Pedro's numbers against LHP this season and then career:

.217/.278/.348 with 40 Ks in 89 at-bats (only 18 RBIs and 3 HRs)
.210/.280/.352 with 163 Ks in 381 at-bats (only 12 total HRs)


Here are Gaby's numbers against LHP this season and then career:

.324/.442/.577 with 11 Ks in 71 at-bats (4 HRs)
.297/.394/.499 with 71 Ks in 445 at-bats (19 HRs)


This is not a difficult decision. Even if you consider Pedro to be having a breakout season, he's put up an OPS of .626 against LHP. Meanwhile, Gaby has absolutely crushed LHP throughout his career and even moreso this season.

The numbers don't lie.


The numbers don't lie, but sometimes the game is about more than numbers!

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:03 am 
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Animal wrote:
The numbers don't lie, but sometimes the game is about more than numbers!


Sure. But when you can set yourself up to win a game in the bottom of the 8th by pushing one run across with the bases loaded and nobody out -- meaning you can win the game simply by putting the ball in play -- do you want the guy who strikes out nearly half the time against LHP or the guy who who strikes out 1 out of 7 times?

I'm all for letting Pedro hit if he demonstrates that he can actually, you know, hit left-handers. But he hasn't. He's not "El Toro" against LHP; he's Clint Barmes against LHP. And the Pirates had a guy on the bench who hits LHP like Miguel Cabrera hits everyone.

So tell me again why you wouldn't pinch hit for Pedro in that situation?


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:05 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Animal wrote:
The numbers don't lie, but sometimes the game is about more than numbers!


Sure. But when you can set yourself up to win a game in the bottom of the 8th by pushing one run across with the bases loaded and nobody out -- meaning you can win the game simply by putting the ball in play -- do you want the guy who strikes out nearly half the time against LHP or the guy who who strikes out 1 out of 7 times?

I'm all for letting Pedro hit if he demonstrates that he can actually, you know, hit left-handers. But he hasn't. He's not "El Toro" against LHP; he's Clint Barmes against LHP. And the Pirates had a guy on the bench who hits LHP like Miguel Cabrera hits everyone.

So tell me again why you wouldn't pinch hit for Pedro in that situation?


Because I want my best HR hitter and Run producer in the game no matter what. If he does fail, which he did, there was still only one out with bases loaded. If that ends up failing, which it did, then there is a possibility that the the game does go into extra innings. If the game DOES go itno extra innings, I want my best HR hitter and run producer to still be in the game...

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:09 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
And the Pirates had a guy on the bench who hits LHP like Miguel Cabrera hits everyone.


I'll take hyperbole for 1000. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Animal wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Animal wrote:
The numbers don't lie, but sometimes the game is about more than numbers!


Sure. But when you can set yourself up to win a game in the bottom of the 8th by pushing one run across with the bases loaded and nobody out -- meaning you can win the game simply by putting the ball in play -- do you want the guy who strikes out nearly half the time against LHP or the guy who who strikes out 1 out of 7 times?

I'm all for letting Pedro hit if he demonstrates that he can actually, you know, hit left-handers. But he hasn't. He's not "El Toro" against LHP; he's Clint Barmes against LHP. And the Pirates had a guy on the bench who hits LHP like Miguel Cabrera hits everyone.

So tell me again why you wouldn't pinch hit for Pedro in that situation?


Because I want my best HR hitter and Run producer in the game no matter what. If he does fail, which he did, there was still only one out with bases loaded. If that ends up failing, which it did, then there is a possibility that the the game does go into extra innings. If the game DOES go itno extra innings, I want my best HR hitter and run producer to still be in the game...


Your argument is based on a fallacy. He's not your "best HR hitter and Run producer" against left-handed pitchers. Period.

And you're in a situation where simply putting the ball in play will WIN YOU THE GAME. Melancon's ERA is microscopic, so grounding into a double play to score a run in the bottom of the eighth will WIN YOU THE GAME. Yet you want to see a guy who strikes out nearly half the time against left-handed pitchers out there?

So what happened. Pedro struck out.

Predictable.


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:12 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
And the Pirates had a guy on the bench who hits LHP like Miguel Cabrera hits everyone.


I'll take hyperbole for 1000. 8-)


Gaby against LHP this year: .324/.442/.577
Cabrera against all pitchers this year: .361/.455/.665

Cabrera's better, sure, but not by a huge margin.


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:24 pm 
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And Martin followed, a RH bat, who just needed to "put the ball in play to win the game"... and he put the ball in play and hit into a DP. Sorry, I will stick with my original opinion. Pedro was the right call.

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Animal wrote:
And Martin followed, a RH bat, who just needed to "put the ball in play to win the game"... and he put the ball in play and hit into a DP. Sorry, I will stick with my original opinion. Pedro was the right call.


Martin screwed up, too. But it's easier to get a run home with the bases loaded and no one out than it is with the bases loaded and one out.

If Pedro wants to be left in the game in that situation, he better start hitting left-handers. At some point, you are what you are. And right now, Pedro is a guy with a .626 OPS against LHP who strikes out almost HALF the time. That's awful.

Let me ask you this question. And answer honestly.

It's October 1, 2013. The Pirates are in a one-game wild card playoff at PNC Park against the Cincy Reds. It's 3-3 in the bottom of the 8th inning, and the Pirates have runners on second and third base with no one out. The Reds just intentionally walked Cutch to load the bases, and then Dusty Baker brings in Aroldis Chapman to face Pedro Alvarez.

Do you let Alvarez hit? Or do you pinch hit with Gaby Sanchez?


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:14 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Animal wrote:
Because I want my best HR hitter and Run producer in the game no matter what. If he does fail, which he did, there was still only one out with bases loaded. If that ends up failing, which it did, then there is a possibility that the the game does go into extra innings. If the game DOES go itno extra innings, I want my best HR hitter and run producer to still be in the game...


Your argument is based on a fallacy. He's not your "best HR hitter and Run producer" against left-handed pitchers. Period.

And you're in a situation where simply putting the ball in play will WIN YOU THE GAME. Melancon's ERA is microscopic, so grounding into a double play to score a run in the bottom of the eighth will WIN YOU THE GAME. Yet you want to see a guy who strikes out nearly half the time against left-handed pitchers out there?

So what happened. Pedro struck out.

Predictable.

Question: how many left-handed relievers did the Marlins have available?

Animal's point regarding extras is valid: if you sub Alvarez for Gaby, and Gaby doesn't get it done, you now have a first baseman playing third who hits right-handers like Alvarez hits left-handers. And the Marlins have way more RHPs in the bullpen than LHPs.

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Animal wrote:
Because I want my best HR hitter and Run producer in the game no matter what. If he does fail, which he did, there was still only one out with bases loaded. If that ends up failing, which it did, then there is a possibility that the the game does go into extra innings. If the game DOES go itno extra innings, I want my best HR hitter and run producer to still be in the game...


Your argument is based on a fallacy. He's not your "best HR hitter and Run producer" against left-handed pitchers. Period.

And you're in a situation where simply putting the ball in play will WIN YOU THE GAME. Melancon's ERA is microscopic, so grounding into a double play to score a run in the bottom of the eighth will WIN YOU THE GAME. Yet you want to see a guy who strikes out nearly half the time against left-handed pitchers out there?

So what happened. Pedro struck out.

Predictable.

Question: how many left-handed relievers did the Marlins have available?

Animal's point regarding extras is valid: if you sub Alvarez for Gaby, and Gaby doesn't get it done, you now have a first baseman playing third who hits right-handers like Alvarez hits left-handers. And the Marlins have way more RHPs in the bullpen than LHPs.


Willton. You're not playing for extras with the bases loaded and nobody out in the bottom of the eighth inning... particularly when you have the most dominant relief pitcher in baseball waiting to close things out for you in the ninth. Leaving in Alvarez, who strikes out almost half the time against LHP, is begging for the outcome that, you know, actually occurred.

And by the way, the Marlins had another LHP available in the 'pen for extras -- Dan Jennings.

How about you answer the question I posed to Animal? Chapman comes in (and let's say Cingrani is still available out of the 'pen for potential extras). Do you let Pedro bat, or do you pinch hit for him with Gaby (or another right-handed batter)?


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:54 pm 
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[/quote]

The numbers don't lie, but sometimes the game is about more than numbers![/quote]


I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. When I hear pull your leading RBI guy with bases loaded in a tie game,all I can do is shake my head and laugh. I know you guys are much smarter than me on all this advanced statistical stuff, but to me
It's the same game I used to play 50+ years ago. You throw the ball, you catch the ball and you hit the ball. Do all those things at the right time and you win more than you lose.

Guess that's why a lot of you guys are waiting for the floor to collapse. By statistics the Pirates shouldn't have the best record in baseball. Career stats say Liriano can't do what he's doing. Melancon or Grilli for that matter have no business closing games. Enjoy it guys, all teams have holes (except maybe the Dodgers).

I believe in this team, despite the fact they are far from perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Scoobiedoo wrote:


I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. When I hear pull your leading RBI guy with bases loaded in a tie game,all I can do is shake my head and laugh. I know you guys are much smarter than me on all this advanced statistical stuff, but to me
It's the same game I used to play 50+ years ago. You throw the ball, you catch the ball and you hit the ball. Do all those things at the right time and you win more than you lose.

Guess that's why a lot of you guys are waiting for the floor to collapse. By statistics the Pirates shouldn't have the best record in baseball. Career stats say Liriano can't do what he's doing. Melancon or Grilli for that matter have no business closing games. Enjoy it guys, all teams have holes (except maybe the Dodgers).

I believe in this team, despite the fact they are far from perfect.




He's your leading RBI guy because he hits a lot of HRs against RHP. Who cares that the rules are the same as they were 50+ years ago? 50 years ago, Pedro Alvarez Sr. would have likely struck out v. Sandy Koufax. Or Fred Norman. I can understand leaving Pedro in, and probably would have done the same, but not because he's leading the team in RBI.

The second paragraph is just a strawman so I'll ignore it.

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:44 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Animal wrote:
And Martin followed, a RH bat, who just needed to "put the ball in play to win the game"... and he put the ball in play and hit into a DP. Sorry, I will stick with my original opinion. Pedro was the right call.


Martin screwed up, too. But it's easier to get a run home with the bases loaded and no one out than it is with the bases loaded and one out.

If Pedro wants to be left in the game in that situation, he better start hitting left-handers. At some point, you are what you are. And right now, Pedro is a guy with a .626 OPS against LHP who strikes out almost HALF the time. That's awful.

Let me ask you this question. And answer honestly.

It's October 1, 2013. The Pirates are in a one-game wild card playoff at PNC Park against the Cincy Reds. It's 3-3 in the bottom of the 8th inning, and the Pirates have runners on second and third base with no one out. The Reds just intentionally walked Cutch to load the bases, and then Dusty Baker brings in Aroldis Chapman to face Pedro Alvarez.

Do you let Alvarez hit? Or do you pinch hit with Gaby Sanchez?


Simple...I hit Pedro. No doubt about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Goes To Show What I Know
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:05 am 
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Animal wrote:
I was at the game tonight. It is getting to be so much more fun at games! Anyway, when Hurdle PH Harrison for Jones, I was livid. Screw the lefty-righty thing.... Jones could win the game with one swing of the bat!

LOL

But then I wondered why not Gaby Sanchez>?? FOr those of you watching at home or listening, was there a reason given why Gaby did not PH?


Hurdle said he was looking to get someone on base, not a HR. if Gaby PH and got on, probably would have had to put Harrison in as the runner. Don't really want to use 2 guys like that when you don't know how long the game will be.


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